SPEAKER_00 0:00

For audio listeners, Hayes has just introduced a very tiny, cute espresso cuff to the podcast. Is that coming from one of those an espresso uh you put in the little pod in it?

SPEAKER_01 0:13

So I have a uh Breville Barista Pro. It's like kind of like you know that like the the it's about that wide, right? Silver, and you can like it's not a it's a what do they call it, a semi-automatic espresso machine.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

Right, right. Well, see, I've got the Breville Bambino Plus. Oh, baby. I'm look, I I'm doing all right, but now I'm envious because I don't know the Barista Pro, but I have to imagine the Barista Pro is the higher end model compared to uh what I believe is translated uh baby plus.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

Yes, the baby plus you you got the baby.

SPEAKER_00 0:54

Yeah. Which uh means I have my baby coffee. Oh, but you're the one with the baby uh espresso cups, so that is true.

SPEAKER_01 1:02

Yeah, it it nothing makes sense about this. Maybe we should talk about flat picking.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

Yes, maybe so. Uh so in the last episode we were discussing uh your progress uh with your with your finger, and now I notice uh we are now without uh cast, we are without medical apparatus.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

So yeah, no no finger apparatus. The the splint is is relegated to nighttime wear only at this point. I guess like the doctors are concerned that I might roll over and do something stupid to it. Um but yeah, uh throughout the day, uh last week I taught at Great Lakes Music Camp uh on Lake Michigan up by Grand Rapids, and that was the first day of camp, was the day I was allowed to kind of like take the splint off and just like walk around and like let the you know my weird fat finger do its thing. It's like noticeably like more inflamed and swollen than the rest. Um but yeah, it's been about four or five days of just like not wearing the splint at this point. Um and no joke, I couldn't even bend the knuckle the first two days. Wow, yeah. It was just like uh because that was the first thing I was worried about. No joke, I was like, oh man, I'm gonna take the splint off and like what if I bend it too much? You know what I mean? And then I get the splint off and I'm like, you know, totally. It's like all seized up.

SPEAKER_00 2:32

Is it just like stiff? Is it like just from not not using it, I guess? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:36

I I think the main thing is that like this muscle right here that's kind of like on the bone between the two knuckles, you know, uh on the edge, um, it's like a ball. It was like you can even see it. It's like really contracted, just I think from sitting there for eight weeks. So um I've been like massaging that, and if I massage it, I I notice the finger dips a little bit just like naturally. So it's like I think we just gotta wake the tissue back up in there and you know, do the thing.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

Do you have a little bit of a do you have any kind of plan for um reintroducing it into your playing? I mean, you can do like a little bit every day, or what's the uh I remember I had a um a surgery on my ulnar nerve at one point in high school, and the official plan to get me back to playing was um uh the you know, after the surgery, after a certain amount of uh recovery, was play one minute a day, and then the next day play two minutes a day. And I I don't know if this was a good plan, but it was it was the plan was like add a minute every day for 60 days. So I was playing after after two months, I was playing an hour. This is now this was a different kind of you know, you'll be you you're not gonna be taking that long, but uh but yeah, certainly there's some some amount of strategy I guess you could have, you know.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

Yeah, I I don't want to I don't want to take this too quickly. That's like my worst. The the fear or like the the the main risk that I run that I hear from this injury is that people try to bend the joint too quickly, and then uh the scar tissue that that healed the uh tendon back together is is kind of like a weak point, you know what I mean? It's not completely so so if you're like str stressing it too much, it could just rip in the exact same spot, and then it's like you're kind of back to square one at that point. Um so what I've actually started doing, I was doing it as you signed on to the call today, uh, is playing all of my fiddle tunes because I can sort of bend the finger to get it like you know, like a C chord looks natural now, or like a you know, like my G chords and stuff. So just playing like rhythm, but not pressing down.

SPEAKER_00 4:41

Interesting, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:44

I know it sounds awful, but it's like literally more of like a physical thing, you know, just to like get the the hands back. And then I was also doing like a almost just like blocking out the motions, you know what I mean? Like playing the fiddle tune. Um the the weirdest thing that I think I'm gonna have to deal with is just like remembering that I can use the middle finger again because eight weeks I was doing you know that, like like I've like this feels more natural to me as a C chord right now.

SPEAKER_00 5:15

That's so funny. It doesn't take long to kind of rewire that, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:21

Right, like that. So I feel like pretty okay with that. Um and and for anyone who may be experiencing an injury right now, just know that if you if you stick it out for a week or two, you can kind of rewire the brain into something different, you know.

SPEAKER_00 5:35

Yeah, yeah. I've been doing that a little bit with the with the banjo stuff, and it actually has helped me uh kind of with my perspective on on some guitar stuff as well, where you know, with with bluegrass banjo players, you're you're making contact with the head of the banjo, you know, planting, they call it, with either the little finger or the middle finger, or or ring finger, sorry, little finger, ring finger, or both. And so I've been experimenting with different versions of that and you know, uh with varying degrees of success. It's you know, some things sound better, some things sound worse, some things are really hard, and whatever. And it's this thing where you like you kind of think you can't do something because it's really uncomfortable. It's exactly what I was happening was like, okay, if I plant both of these fingers, then it makes certain things on impossible. And uh and I just kind of was like, as an experiment, what if it what if I didn't think it was impossible, right? Uh you know, which we can kind of see where this is going. Um and and I looked up a lot of stuff about like finger independence or like um, you know, kind of like the psychological side of trying to overcome, you know, like uh for some people it's like injuries or or um, yeah, finger independence is a good example of it, where truly, if you look at the finger you're trying to move and you you focus on it and you think about it moving in a certain way, it has a huge impact on whether or not you're able to move your finger in that way. And it was blowing my mind. I was like, wow, okay, well, I guess all those other times I just was a huge quitter and I just gave up and didn't, you know, whatever. But it's been really fascinating. And so I'm thinking about that a lot more with a guitar too, where I've had these ideas about how I should hold the pick or how I should have my hand, or all these things that I've made up my mind of like, well, holding the pick this way is good for this, holding the pick this way is good for that, whatever. It's like, yeah, those have been kind of been my experiences, but they don't necessarily that's not the end of the road, you know. So instead of saying, like, well, when I have the open hand, it's good for, you know, I can't really do this, and when I have the closed hand, I can't really do that. It's like, well, actually, it's uh it it's a lot deeper than that, right? It doesn't have to be quite that uh black and white, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 7:42

Yeah, can't is always like a like a how do I want to say it, like a relative thing to where you are right now. Yeah, right. You know, I I think that's one of those, like that's a psychological hurdle that really I had to overcome in some kind of big way, you know what I mean? Like, but my grandpa, you know, I love these, like, you know, his he he always had these kind of phrases, right? You know, every grandpa's got some good, like, you know, wisdom for you or whatever. And one of them was can't never could. Can't never could. And I think that's like the best, right? You know, it's because if it's it's like it's a self-fulfilling prophecy, is what he was trying to say, you know what I mean? Right. Um, and and if you if you kind of explore it with some curiosity and maybe like beginner's mindset, kind of like you're talking about here, you know, then then that that needle can start to move over a little bit of time, maybe, right?

SPEAKER_00 8:33

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you don't need it to move much to kind of I mean that's all you need is just a little something that's like, okay, there's proof that there's this is movable. This is impossible, you know. And then it's like, okay, it'll take a while, but I can I can stick with it for for a while. So well that that'll be the world you're you're living in with uh with that for a while. But don't worry, they're I can't think of I can't think of anyone better suited to uh I mean you've already been doing it. This is uh yeah, every part of this has been that exact uh, you know, it's like what am I gonna do with one less finger? What am I you know, it's like you already did eight weeks of this mindset. Now you're now you're you've now you're coming out of it.

SPEAKER_01 9:10

So you know Yeah, get ready for another eight weeks of me pontificating uh about all this crap on my YouTube channel.

SPEAKER_00 9:17

I can't wait. No, I'm excited, man.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

Yeah, I think I think the thing that I'm excited to share, you know, and this is something for anyone listening to kind of keep up with if you want, you know, like go follow my channel because I have been keeping logs about it. The thing that's weird now is that like I I was talking about this with um with my buddy, you know, with our buddy Patrick Sundvik, the flat pick nation, you know. And there's this thing, um you know how like if you have beginner students, and I remember this when I was a beginner too. It's like a month or so in, you can like you you start to feel the calluses start to form, and you're like you're proud of that, you know, because that that was like a huge thing to talk about at the beginning because it hurts to like physically play the instrument, and you're like, oh my calluses are coming in teach, you know, and and and like me and Patrick were like that's been so long ago that you almost you take that for granted so much, you're just like who cares about your calluses, you know what I mean? But like right now, dude, like touching this guitar string feels like running my hand like bare skin across a cheese grater, you know? Yeah. That's like literally what it feels like. And and uh I have so much empathy, again, for all my beginning students. And you know, we're teachers, so we see this and we do have empathy, but you don't truly have like the the empathy until you're like, dang, I don't it's been literally E-Life 30 years since my middle finger had that much bare skin on it to like feel uncomfortable on a guitar string.

SPEAKER_00 10:50

Wow, yeah. Oh, it's so interesting. I mean, because I I hadn't had that experience like on banjo or on electric guitar in such a long time, but I did have I I had that experience when I was starting to flatpick uh kind of more seriously and playing those dreadnought a whole bunch. Is yeah, I had that experience that I hadn't had in a really long time. Um, and you're right that it's it's a different kind of empathy. I mean, it's it's like a true, a true empathy where you kind of like actually actually know what someone's going through, not just being like, I hate that for you, man. But you're just like, wow, it's like, no, no, no, this is different because I'm experiencing it now. Um, but that's what it was, man. It's like I was having all the, you know, I get questions all the time from beginners that say um, you know, especially with banjo uh button but guitar as well, saying, like, ah, I think there's something wrong with my banjo. Should I get a different banjo? Do I need different strings? Do I need my I think the action's too high? Like all these questions, which some of those things may be true, but usually early on, the truth is just you gotta get you gotta get there, you gotta get used to it. And and you yeah, you get used to telling people that, or you get used to kind of feeling like people just need to, they just need to get over it, basically. Uh, you know, is like my kind of most dismissive thought that I ever have. Then I try to be like helpful and say, like, yeah, well, you know, maybe we can change these things about your technique, or maybe you can just um, you know, structure your practice in a way that you can, you know, work on things so it doesn't hurt as much to press down on strings. But then when I started flat picking, the amount of times I was like, ah, maybe I need a small body, maybe these strings are too heavy. Does everyone really use 13s? Like maybe Yeah, one and eleven sixteenths nut would probably help, you know what I mean? Because of the tighter spacing, you know? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. And it's like, you know, for my unique playstyle, for what I'm trying to do artistically, I think what I need is a really super easy to play guitar so I don't have ouchy fingers, you know. And then then, you know, it's like a couple months goes by and it's like, yeah, actually, I just needed some calluses and now it's fine.

SPEAKER_01 12:53

Yeah, actually, no, I'm just a three-year-old with the power of rationalization who's trying to use some of these things.

SPEAKER_02 13:00

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 13:04

Totally, totally, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:07

And I think you get that probably better than anyone, right? You know, it's like Oh, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 13:11

Well, and I mean what a humbling, yeah, what a humbling thing to be in that situation, being like, no, I'm pretty sure just what I think right now is exactly right, and no one can tell me anything else. And uh I won't learn anything from this experience. And like a week goes by and you're like, why did nobody tell me? Why did nobody tell me this? Yeah. I think I mentioned this on one of the previous episodes, but I I went to Guitar Center and played a bunch of guitars. Um uh they had the I I mentioned at one point that I had this that that that Santa Cruz Tony Rice model, and I didn't have time to check it out. They had it all locked up, um, you know, uh as they should. I would have exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I didn't, you know, I didn't have the time to have somebody um present it to me ceremoniously, but I did play a bunch of the other guitars there, and there were some interesting ones. Uh, I mean, it's all a bunch of new, it was a bunch of new Martins and new Gibsons, and uh which is kind of fascinating for sure. But it's funny after all this uh you know back and forth in my mind about like how heavy the strings should be and like getting comfortable with it, I could tell they all had 12s on them. Uh and I was like, I mean, it is this I was like, yeah, this doesn't I get why people play 13s because this doesn't sound right for this.

SPEAKER_01 14:22

It doesn't have that presence, right? It doesn't have the presence, right?

SPEAKER_00 14:26

Yeah, there's something to it, but pretty comfortable to play, I'll tell you, pretty smooth. So I you know I could play pretty easily. It was like I kind of also get why some people do this, but I now know enough to be like, for what I want the sound to be, I can't go down this road. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:42

I I think that's a a really interesting conversation to have because Bepe. I play with Bepe Gambetta a lot, yeah. Right. And he and I actually talk about this. He has solidly at this point in his career switched to lights, but interesting for for reasons that you and I are kind of like talking about, but but 30 years down the line. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 15:03

Sure, that's huge, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:05

Bepe's like, he's like, I just turned 72. Like, and and he's like not even making excuses about it. He's like, 13 sound better, you know what I mean? Sure, sure. But like where I'm at, like because uh I'm losing a little bit of facility with my hands, or they're just not as limber as they used to be, he's like, I can sacrifice the tonal thing just to be able to play my instrument, you know? And yeah, and and I think at anybody's like at some point in your career when the tool stops like functioning the way you need it to, that's when you need to kind of like have these conversations. It's not like wow, my fingers hurt at after step one of this process, so I need to start changing variables, right? You know, Beth is like an expert, yeah. Yeah, like the last five years I've been playing, and I noticed this thing about playing 13. You know what I mean? He had a lot of data input or whatever. So sure. Um so yeah, I'm I'm I'm with you. I I tend to like look pretty quick, you know what I mean? My mind is like that. It's like uh this is this hurts. What what can I do different? Um it's not me. I'm not changing anything about myself. How couldn't possibly be me? You know, like how could yeah, come on. I went to music school, Eli. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 16:24

That is the worst part of uh theoretically being uh knowledgeable about something or good at something, is the the then expectation that you are that all the time, which is like yeah, there's some stuff that I always know, but depending on whether or not I've been practicing some particular thing, I may actually be a horrible resource for this. You know, I remember had to I had I spent used spent a lot of time studying Don Reno's playing at one point and uh which was which was super fun. And actually, maybe I should check out some Don Reno guitar stuff now. But I remember um teaching at a camp and uh uh there was a a Don Reno class that was being taught, and the teacher had to leave for one reason or another, so I had to step in on that class. I had my classes, but then I said, Hey, do you know any Don Reno stuff? Can you step in and teach this? I was like, Oh yeah, totally. I got all these tunes that I've whatever. Step into the class. It's been years since I played any of these tunes. I don't really play in that style anymore if I ever did. And it was like, oh, okay, yeah, I can tell you what records to listen to. Here's a bunch of tablature, and um uh here we can imagine what it sounds like if I played it up to speed, but uh, you know, so I love it.

SPEAKER_01 17:34

Yeah. You were just there with your thumb pick playing rockabilly licks for you know at like 80 beats per minute, you know.

SPEAKER_00 17:41

Exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:45

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_00 17:50

He is kind of the Chuck Berry of the banjo, I guess that is like uh kind of agree with you on that one, man.

SPEAKER_01 17:55

I remember the uh first time I heard, you know, I know you're married, but I love you still. I was like, that's that's a banjo, you know? Right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:05

Totally. Oh my god, yeah, it's so it's so good. Yeah. But uh, well, and and I will say, I gotta dig deeper into this because there's a great video of them playing that song, um uh Reno and Smiley. And I think it's on, you know, because Flat and Scrugs had that Martha White show, which was uh, you know, every I don't know how often it was, but but it was like every day or something like that. Like they were playing constantly on this on this TV show, um, at least a couple days a week. And then there was a show that was uh did not take off. They might have only filmed like a pilot or something of uh of the Reno and Smiley Kroger TV show.

SPEAKER_01 18:43

There's like 10 to 20 episodes. I've got these on like so like checking.

SPEAKER_00 18:48

I didn't realize there was that many. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 18:50

Yes, so they were on YouTube at one point in time. I feel like there was like more than a handful, you know. And I remember like just downloading every single one back in the day. Number one, because Kroger is from Ohio, which is ridiculous. It all comes back to Ohio. I was like, oh my god, Reno and Smiley, we're sponsored by Kroger. That's amazing. That's why by my money. That's so good.

SPEAKER_00 19:16

I love Kroger. Um Kroger, please sponsor us. Okay, so I need to get those from you if I can't find them online because I think I've only seen one of them. Um but that version from that show that's on YouTube of uh I know you're married, but I love you still. Um Red Smiley's rhythm on that is unreal. It's so yeah, it's so good. And it's it's different from Lester Flat. Like it's kind of cool that era, you can kind of hear like two the two big, two of the big rhythm guitarists of the of the time, but it's oh my god, it's so good. And he's playing these like these getting huge bass notes, and yeah, it's it's great. We'll maybe we'll leave a link somewhere where people can go listen to that. But like, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:59

Go listen to that. Exactly. Oh my god, it's so good.

SPEAKER_00 20:04

And is he doing, I mean, let's get technical here. Is he I don't know, is he doing the the rest stroke stuff there, you think? So good, dude.

SPEAKER_01 20:12

Dude, if you watch his hand, it's like dot, like it's like coming in from like out. You know, you're just like that. That man had heavy strings on his Martin. Those were those must have been 14s on there, you know what I mean? Yeah, but oh man. I actually never did that rest stroke until I saw him do it on the show. That was like because I was like rest strokes, I'm like, I don't need that crap, you know. Like my favorite players don't do rest strokes, you know. Yeah. Um but then I heard that D run, you know, and I'm just like, oh, that's and and everyone talks about the G run, you know, trying to do it the Lester way or whatever, with like right, you know, with that. But I think if you're wanting to honestly, if you're wanting to get into that Jake Workman style of like, you know, pick slanting kind of thing, doing your D run that way and just even targeting like I'm right now, you know, like hit hit one of those strings from kind of far out on the guitar just to see if you can get that rest stroke to land. Um but yeah, dude, that uh that that that stuff was amazing. Um that's so cool.

SPEAKER_00 21:19

Do you know, um do you know historically, like string gauge-wise? You were just joking about him having 14s, but actually I'm curious, like it's such a um it's such a thing that changes over time with any instrument, like what is the preferred setup, and here's how Earl set up his banjo, but that doesn't really apply because now we use plastic heads instead of hide heads. So like things change. Do you know string gauge wise what people were using, like Lester or or or Jimmy Martin or whatever?

SPEAKER_01 21:44

Like, yeah, uh you know, I'm not sure what those guys were using, but I know that like there was this mentality back in the day that I hear from some of the like old school guys that I happen to know. Um, like there was a there's a a really great banjo player who lives in. Um East Tennessee now, but he was a he was an English professor at Denison named Richard Hood, amazing banjo player. Only guy with a PhD in English who could play melodic banjo that good, you know, and East Tennessee's two-finger style too, you know, like all cool stuff. Um, but he used to talk about these things, and I remember we were at his house one time and we saw like an old pack of black diamond strings from like back in the day. Um, but but I remember that um he he talked about because like I think like Larry Sparks was like into you know super heavy gauge, like like the heavy gauge black diamond strings. Um yeah, and I know that they were a 14. I think it was like a because like what is it? Is it 13 to 56 is medium now, right?

SPEAKER_00 22:51

Yeah, yes, I think so.

SPEAKER_01 22:52

And I and I want to say the heavy gauge was 14 to 59. Wow. So that's almost like a like a bass guitar like G string on your body or something like that, you know, probably.

SPEAKER_00 23:06

Um especially when for Larry Sparks because uh because he's bending stuff and like you know, like in a way that's hard enough with with 13s, you know. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:17

But but I remember like so do you know how on the inside of a Martin guitar it says like don't use uh strings heavier than do you know this warning? Have you seen this on the inside of there's a stamped warning on the inside of every Martin guitar not to use heavy gauge strings or like gauges above like they even say lights now, you know. I think I I forget. Let me let me see, let me look this up because this is important. Um, so like uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

That's so interesting. I mean it makes sense because it gets into there's so many things about these, like especially like uh classic instruments where you're like, well, if if this has happened to the instrument, you know it's good or bad or whatever, like like the you know, saddle pulling up, whatever the thing is, something like that. Um yeah, and it's like there's certain things about Martin's where it's like they actually can't handle the strings that we prefer over the longest timeline, but over the timeline of like our lifetime, it's awesome. But over the longest lifetime, it's gonna rip the guitar apart, basically.

SPEAKER_01 24:21

Absolutely, dude. Yeah, here's one. There's some of the nylon string guitars that say like made only for nylon strings, but that's the one I'm finding. I I've I've seen this on the labels. I forget the exact wording, but it's like you know, made only for light gauge strings or or something like that. And that was because back in the 60s, or whenever, you know, like uh these these maybe 50s through 60s Martin guitars were coming back into the factory for warranty repairs with bridges being like ripped off the top and all this kind of stuff because guys were using, I think, 14s probably they were using those heavy gauge strings because heck, I've never tried heavies on a guitar, but I bet the tone's pretty fat. I bet those strings activate the top.

SPEAKER_00 25:05

Huge, I bet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and is that I mean, because you know, I borrowed a guitar from from someone one time that um I never looked at it, so I didn't know if I had like done something to it or not, but it was behind the the bridge. It had like this kind of raised area here where it was.

SPEAKER_01 25:20

Oh, the belly behind the bridge, man. Yeah, that's an known phenomenon. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:25

I was concerned. I was like, hey man, I don't know if I like did something to your guitar, but I think whatever. But and he was like, Oh no, that's a good sign. That's what you want. You know, yeah, there's a there's a preference for that. And and that is like it's it's pretty cool, but it also is like that. Is the the slow eventual destruction of the guitar.

SPEAKER_01 25:44

Absolutely. And I would say most good guitars that I've seen, like good vintage ones, have like a s you can't pull on a piece of spruce for 80 years with that much tension without affecting it a little bit, right? So there will always be like a slight, but if you're noticing, like if you could, if you could like you know launch a race car, you know, like a matchbox off of that thing, you know, like you might want to go get that taken care of, you know.

SPEAKER_00 26:10

You're playing with fire. Yeah, I mean well, and I like that the solution is not to like, you know, we don't want this to be any stronger, the top. The top, don't change the top. Maybe we'll just make sure the bridge doesn't actually come off. But other than that, you know, yes.

SPEAKER_01 26:23

So it, you know, I I don't know a lot about this. I'm sure like, you know, like uh there's there's somebody who knows much more about this that's already angrily typing comments uh into the video right now. But um yeah, but if you do have like info about specific string gauges that players used to use back in the day, I would be interested in that too. Because like I know that there's this lore surrounding like the the heavy gauge thing, and that like essentially Martin had to start warning people interesting because of this phenomenon, you know. Um totally, totally and I think mediums did end up becoming the middle ground because it was the heaviest that we could get away with without like uh immediately destroying our guitars.

SPEAKER_00 27:03

Yeah, right, right. Yeah, as long as there weren't any like huge issues, it wasn't gonna fall apart in your lifetime, probably. You know, you know, uh that's that's pretty interesting. Yeah, that's funny. Yeah, with with the banjo, it's the same. I mean, and things change because it's like uh the way things are recorded. Uh you get different levels of fidelity, and therefore you don't need it to be so loud or you know, whatever. Like you can get away with different things. Um, you know, and then different players have different. I mean, Sonny Osborne had super heavy strings and Earl didn't, and blah blah blah. Everyone's always kind of saying, you know, well, this is exactly how so-and-so did it. It was like, yeah, well, they had a a different, you know, the instrument was set up differently and it was recorded differently, and brought maybe into like a single microphone or whatever, you know, so there's all this stuff that that can make a huge difference with that. But yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure it's the same thing. I mean, guitar is an interesting one too, because uh at a certain point you weren't really thinking about whether or not you could play any lead stuff on it. Like, you know, if we're talking about I mean, again, uh the immediate exception is Larry Sparks. So we're talking about he didn't care with the heavy, heavy gauge strings, but I'm sure at a certain point it was like, you know, if I'm just playing rhythm, you know, I'm probably fine with any gauge. Uh it doesn't matter how heavy it gets, that you can you can get around with that. But absolutely, man.

SPEAKER_01 28:19

No, I I think you're I think you're right. You know, and it you're alluding to something too, right? Like the technology behind and and like understanding of the instruments and everything has like grown by leaps and bounds. Like the guitar you're holding in your hand that we're holding in our hands. These are like two of the the best, like what do I want to say, like researchers of any of the like phenomena that we're talking about here, probably, right? Um, yeah, Dana and and all the rest of the folks that have have kind of studied this stuff since. Like those, those are probably the people that have kept these stories alive for us to learn from, you know what I mean? Totally. Like, yeah, yeah. Um, so what I'll say right now is that I actually did find they don't have all of them. Um, okay, but it's a DVD of performances from the Kroger TV show, and the total runtime on the DVD is 60 minutes. So I think it's like a compilation.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

Great, okay, cool. So there's at least a couple of them. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:18

Um, and that's on uh Ronnie Reno's website. So please, for the love of God, people, go to Ronnie Reno's website and buy that DVD because yeah, like we want to support Ronnie Reno, you know?

SPEAKER_00 29:29

Yes, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, he put on a bunch of great stuff over the years. I mean, obviously, like his own new. Oh man, his show on RFD.

SPEAKER_01 29:39

Do you watch that at all? Yeah, dude. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. That's uh yeah, man. The RFD TV is is strong here in the the East Gateway to the Midwest, you know? Yeah, right, totally.

SPEAKER_00 29:54

Gateway to the real America. Exactly. Yes, yeah, yeah. Oh, that's great. Yeah, man. That's fine. So you're teaching at uh you were teaching at what is it called? Miles of Music?

SPEAKER_01 30:08

Uh so this one, there's been a couple recently, but this one is Great Lakes Music Camp.

SPEAKER_00 30:13

Oh, that's right. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 30:15

Yeah, yeah. And this was in West Michigan. This is actually no joke, dude. This is the first camp that I ever uh was like hired at as Hayes Griffin to come like be an instructor. And I gotta say, just like right off the rip, like thanks to Jason Wheeler, the guy that runs that camp, for kind of believing in me that way. Because that was right at the beginning of this whole like shift into Hayes, the guitar teacher kind of identity. Oh, cool, yeah. It was really early on. I had just moved to Grand Rapids uh with Quinn, my wife, um, in 2016. Um, we were both she was hired to be like kind of a tenure track college professor up there. Um, my wife is the most interesting person in the world, by the way, guys. Like she has a PhD in classics. So like Latin is her specialty, you know. Um she's bilingual. Um mid-pandemic, she quit her job as a PhD, tenure track professor in classics to uh become a web developer, and then she also just recently quit that to become a personal trainer. So she's like the queen of the transformation, you know? Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_00 31:24

Oh, that's killer.

SPEAKER_01 31:25

That's great. But in our first transformation, Grand Rapids was the place, and uh there's such a great community of people up there. I don't know. Have you you haven't been to that camp yet, have you?

SPEAKER_00 31:36

No, I haven't. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 31:37

Yeah, that's funny because I've been up there. I I think this was just like right before you joined up with Missy, because I I was I've taught at that specific camp with her like at least twice, I think. Right.

SPEAKER_00 31:48

Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:50

Um, but but it's it's one of those deals, like, no joke, guys, if you're listening right now, go to greatlakesmusic.org and sign up for their mailing list because uh this year at camp, it was the guitar staff was Grant Gordy, Ross Martin, Kenny Smith, and me. Dude. And yeah, I was like, I was actually kind of peeved that they made me teach this year because I just wanted to go to all those guys' classes.

SPEAKER_00 32:18

Oh man, that's the hardest. That is the that is the hardest thing about teaching at these camps, especially when they have a ton of each instrument. It's like you just can't go to everyone else's uh classes, and that's all you want to do. You know, it's fun to teach, but it's like uh yeah, that's like uh Ross.

SPEAKER_01 32:34

We would like be passing each other in the in the like dining hall, and it's just like, hey, hey man, you know, like you're just like ships passing in the night. It's like like all you want to do is sit down and make music with or or talk with those people, um, because there are pals, you know. Um but uh I did get to sit down with Kenny um for about an hour, and we're we'll have an interview. It might already be out by the time you guys see this, but um go check out Kenny's YouTube channel because we did an interview. Um he actually I'll I'll tell you this, dude. He was very appreciative of the love that you gave him in uh cool what episode was it was a a couple back, you know. Um but but Kenny was pretty jacked that we're doing the flat picking podcast and all that stuff. So um, and he agreed to an interview. So we better, we better, we better call him.

SPEAKER_00 33:26

This we're just one step closer to being best friends. Exactly. This is this is our ploy, actually, is to ingratiate ourselves to all of our favorite flat pickers. Uh oh, that's so cool. That's awesome. Yeah, I'm I will I look forward to uh his video and also yeah, an interview. That sounds so cool. Yeah. Um that's awesome. Yeah, I'd love to uh yeah, the cool I mean, well, here we are, we're just gonna talk about Kenny again. But um yeah, I mean, uh I'd yeah, I'd love to I'd love to also just like I've thought about I've looked at a couple things like signing up to like go to a camp where he's teaching or something just to just to kind of see him, you know. I feel like if we spend so much time uh listening and transcribing things, which really is like such a great uh way to do it, obviously. Like we can't talk about that enough, but uh I think partially because of how busy we are, we just like actually don't get that much time to go sit and like listen to them talk about what they do. Like a lot of what we're doing is kind of guesswork in a way. Uh so actually it's kind of nice once in a while to have someone explain something for a change.

SPEAKER_01 34:32

I uh I was really appreciative of the time to to sit down with Kenny and and you mentioned transcription. I'll toss this out there because he put it out in the interview. Um, I didn't know how much he wanted to like, you know, reveal this or whatever, but I'm the guy that does all the transcription work for Kenny's like online school. So it's it's been really fun. Talk about like an education. Holy crap, man. It's like once a month Kenny sends me a video and he's like, here's a video of me playing, work it out, you know?

SPEAKER_00 35:01

And then I go Hey, here's a masterpiece.

unknown 35:03

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 35:04

And then it's like I send it back to him and he's like, ah, well, this was wrong and this was wrong, but like, you know, 98% of it was great. Thanks. And then, like, to me, that's a learning moment because it's like, oh, I've found his trick there. You know what I mean? So um, yeah, yeah, it's it's kind of like a special, um, yeah, uh, like you said, I still get verbal feedback from him every now and again. Um, but it was it was super cool to to hear some of the stories about him at camp. So my sister went to this camp with me, and she's uh a beginner for like a year. You know, she's she's been playing less uh less than a year since January at this point. Um, and she said that like Kenny's um tips for like rhythm and tone generation were like really helpful to her as a beginner, which I think you and I I at least think about that as stuff. It's like, okay, worry about getting the G chord down and we'll talk about how to make it sound good later, you know? Yeah, yeah. But that was really cool that he was working with people just to because it think about what we appreciate about Kenny's playing, just his like crystal clear sound, smooth, all that stuff, right? So um it was cool to kind of hear that second hand, how he was transmitting that info to people. One thing that I learned, you know, we've been talking about my my middle finger, and and he and I talked about this just a hair on the on the on the podcast that he recorded. I won't ruin it because you should go check it out on his channel. Um, but Kenny had a big injury when he was working at Gallagher guitars back in the day. A lot of people don't know, but Kenny is actually an extremely talented luthier. Um yeah, so he he helped, you know, he was a he built Gallagher guitars back in the early 90s. Um yeah, and and that's how he, you know, kind of developed his relationship with collings and all that stuff too. Um he's just knowledgeable. He I think he's he tell me if I'm wrong, Kenny, but I heard somewhere along the line that he even did the neck reset on his 35, which like wow yeah, like sorry, dude. I have a hard enough time changing the strings on my old Martin Ludwig. You know what I mean? Yeah, totally pop the neck off there. Um but the the injury that Kenny had, and like I said, um directly led to his kind of smooth uh tone production. Wow, okay. And and part of what he was he was trying to tell me, I think, was like, he was like, this is gonna affect your playing in a good way. He's like, you don't know what it's gonna do to you yet. You know, but but like this this thing that's that's happening there, he's like, you're gonna be better for it. He had like even no doubt in his mind, you know what I mean? Yeah. Um and and I was I thought that was crazy because like literally he was like, I was a different player when I came out of that injury. He couldn't squeeze the neck really hard after his injury, so so he had to to learn how to get just enough pressure on the string to touch the fret without over pressing, right to generate good tone and everything. And I was like, oh my gosh, it was like someone had like an electric shock mechanism on him, you know what I mean? And it's like if you're pressing too hard, like you know, yeah, yeah. So to to hear that kind of stuff was inspiring, and um that's why we go to these camps, you know, like back to what you were saying, like you're not gonna learn that just like listening to Studebaker. Like you're gonna learn some great stuff, but then like to have the man himself just say something like that to you in person was like, Holy crap, that that was worth more than um than the paycheck that I got at the camp, you know.

SPEAKER_00 38:42

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and it's a good it's a good also indication of like the kind of teacher you want to have a relationship with, either at a camp or if it's like your you know, private, you know, one-on-one teacher or something like that. It's like, you know, you you really do want someone who can who can help you with the the details, like the technique and go check out this solo and and you know, stuff like that. But it's like you know, you don't know this until you have this experience how important it is to have somebody that um uh their like life experience is relevant to what you're trying to do, and then they can kind of share that in a way that's like either inspiring or you know, motivating or or whatever it is, you know, you know, or s or say, like, hey, I'm struggling with this thing, and they're like, Oh yeah, been there, whatever it is, you know. Yeah, um, and either they have advice.

SPEAKER_01 39:33

You're like, God, he's never had a problem with the instrument, right?

SPEAKER_00 39:37

You know, exactly, yeah, totally, yeah, yeah. And yeah, and eventually you just find out like each one of these people has had this whole long life of of, you know, and and it's like, you know, troubles with their playing or like different bands that they've been in, or you know, whatever. Yeah, there's there's always something like that. So I always try to think about that when I'm, you know, certainly teaching, but then like the the that's what I try to do sometimes at these camps is just like spend time around the people that I I really kind of respect in a way where I'm just like anything they say is kind of uh meaningful musically, but also just like uh kind of existing as a part of the community, right? Like you kind of see it in the people that the way that they share information freely or the way that they um can kind of sense who needs what kind of help or whatever it is. I mean, yeah, one of my my favorite things about teaching banjo camps these days is that it just turns out that I uh am always on the same uh little tour of camps as Alan Mundy. And so, you know, for the last couple years, I get to hang out with Alan Mundy like a couple times, you know, whatever, like you know, two to five times a year here and there, whatever it is. And uh yeah, so I'm kind of like I'm teaching my classes, having a great time, and then I'm just kind of following him around and just like you know, breakfast, lunch, and dinner being like, hey, is this seat taken? You know, and we'll just talk about stuff. And it's like, you know, uh it's you know, great for the musical stuff, but it's like, yeah, it's just someone that you you kind of want to model that that kind of behavior as a as a member of the community. And uh seems like Kenny is kind of that that person.

SPEAKER_01 41:12

Kenny is man, he's he's so uh giving and and kind of just like there's no ego or anything. It's it's an extremely humble experience to walk up to Kenny. I don't know if I've told this story before, but he's actually the first, like, like what I would consider like top-tier, like like famous, you know, level flat picker that I ever worked up the gumption to go ask for a lesson. You know, nice, yeah. Yeah, I was at the the Musicians Against Childhood Cancer Festival in Columbus. It used to be like our biggest um summer bluegrass festival up here in central Ohio. And Kenny was up there, you know, with Kenny and Amanda Smith band, and you know, this was I I was 18 or 19, and my dad had taken me there, and I was like, God, I would love to sit down with Kenny Smith. And my dad was like, go ask him, you know, and I'm like, no, there's no way, you know, and he's like, No, let's go ask him. You know, so my dad was like, dad was like kind of you know, like pushing me toward him or whatever. So I I walked up to him after a set and I was like, hey, Kenny, would you be like, give me a guitar? Let's like, let's go over to this bench right here. It was like, it was like right then he was like, he was like, there's a bench, let's go do it. Yeah, he's like, You got your little Zoom recorder? Awesome. He's like, bring that with you, like turn it on, you know. Um, oh, I've probably got that recording somewhere. We should take that out of the archive. To hear that, yeah. That's love to hear 19-year-old Haze sucking it up in front of gates.

SPEAKER_00 42:37

Look, there's a lot of things about this recording I'd love to hear. All right. Do you remember what you guys talked about?

SPEAKER_01 42:44

Um, you know, the there was, yes, I do. And Kenny would find this hilarious. I haven't talked to him about this uh since. One thing he was really trying to get me to do, because he could hear that I was hitting chord tones appropriately. You know, it's like he was like, you know, your melody and your chord tones, like he's like, they're they're happening in the right spot, but he was like, you can kind of you know make your phrasing a little more interesting by anticipating the next chord. So he would like sit down and and play something, but like maybe two or three beats ahead of a measure, he would start playing something that was related to a C chord before the C chord actually happened. And man, okay, if if that didn't like completely like I remember sitting there, he was like, You try it, and I do it, and he's like, Nah, that didn't really work. Let's try it again. Nah, that didn't really work, you know. So I was just totally, oh, cool. I completely beating my head against it. But that's one of those things that I it haunted me for years. I was like, Holy crap, Kenny was like this thing seemed so simple to him, the way that he delivered it, you know. And I was like, There's gotta be some kind of profound truth in there. Um, and really what I needed to do was just go listen to him and like Tony Rice more, you know. Yeah. But but once he he planted that concept in my mind and I was looking for it, I was like, there it is. Tony does it all the time on the album band stuff, you know what I mean? Um gotcha. Yeah. Yeah. He'll he'll kind of like when the G chord is happening, you know, that lick starts, you know what I mean? Yeah, totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's like there's like some C chord tone things happening on strong beats, you know, that that are still happening over a G chord. And I was like, oh, that's what he means. It's like just like start to kind of set that next chord up for a for a strong landing, you know.

SPEAKER_00 44:36

Um totally, yeah, yeah. As long as you're landing on that chord tone, you could kind of like uh, you know, you know, hear that it's really that D that I'm I'm playing there, right? Uh but but what if it doesn't matter as long as you eventually get to the correct chord, you know?

SPEAKER_01 44:54

Yes. And and think about it this way: this is how I had to frame it in my mind, like it's a different way of tension and release. We're used to tension and release being playing with the chord, meaning like the chord itself, like the the changes that are happening are the tension and release, but you can actually kind of create a little bit more tension by anticipating that next chord over the one you're currently playing on that creates a bit of a clash, right? Yeah, in a good way that creates that release. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:24

Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, not not being like because because the other version of that, you know, like uh you know, like you're you're you're using you're using different harmony on the G chord, but it's still the G chord, it's like it's it's saying, Hey, look where I'm going. I'm telling you, like, you know, it's it's it's uh oh he hit the seventh. That means it's gonna result down a half step to a third, you know? Like totally, totally. Where yeah, that's so interesting. But the but the one you're talking about is almost like a little more mysterious, where it's just like the question is not like where is he going? It's more like, why is he doing oh, that's why he was doing that, you know?

SPEAKER_01 45:59

Like it's yeah, you know, because if you think about it, right, like like a G7, you were kind of just the frame of if you were, you know, we think about that G B D F, right? Those are the notes that we've got that are inside the chord. But if we're playing anticipating that C chord, we've got C E G. So G is common, we can kind of get rid of that one, C and E. If we add a C and an E note to a G7 chord, you know. Yeah. Yeah. And then all of a sudden you're like, holy crap, that is what Kenny Smith sounds like. You know what I mean? You hear those like kind of suspensions and stuff like that. And as soon as I kind of started approaching it that way, I was like, oh my gosh, that's like that's where that kind of smooth, buttery sound comes from, is that anticipation thing he was talking about.

SPEAKER_00 46:45

Yeah, totally. Um, totally.

SPEAKER_01 46:47

Yeah, dude. So all that to say, like go to a camp, go ask your favorite player for a tip or something like that, because that was life-changing for me, you know. That that that's that set me on a concept that I to this day am still kind of like looking at mastering. Um yeah, I I I can't thank Kenny enough for for blowing 19-year-old Hayes' mind with that one, you know.

SPEAKER_00 47:18

That's and after that you said, yeah, yeah, that's cool, but how do you play the chromatic lick at Statebaker? Yeah, that's all good and everything, but I want to I want to know the the cool stuff, you know. I do know how that one happens. How does that happen? Because what is that? I don't even know where it happens.

SPEAKER_01 47:33

Where is that, you know? It's up the neck. The first note is an open string, and the after that it's a fretted lower string up the neck. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. We'll capo up and show you off camera. We won't want to give this one away to everyone here.

SPEAKER_00 47:47

No, no, no, no. Once we have a Patreon for this podcast, we'll put it up there, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 47:51

Yeah, we should talk about that, you know.

SPEAKER_00 47:54

Hey, we what I will mention, by the way, since we've we're not very good at at um uh well, we we haven't been doing all the right social media stuff um uh in that not once have we asked you to like or subscribe. We haven't asked you to smash any buttons. Um, but I will say, uh not look, we're in it for the money. We're doing this podcast for for the huge amount of money. And by my calculations, if we were monetized on this YouTube channel, we'd probably be making like 20 bucks a month or something like that. Um and and we have people are watching this podcast and listening to it. We have reached, we have reached the point where uh we've hit the number of watch hours that we could be monetized. We could be making $20 a month, um, but we don't have enough subscribers, which is actually so backwards from how it usually goes that you're usually like trying to, you know, you get subscribers and then like you're actually getting people to try to watch your so you guys are actually listening and watching. That's great. Look, I'm glad you love the content, but just press the button. You just got to subscribe to the podcast on on YouTube specifically. I actually have no idea if if you can, I assume you can make money somehow on the podcast apps. I maybe that just has to be sponsorships or something.

SPEAKER_01 49:08

Anyway, I think it's sponsorships there. So yeah, yeah, yeah. The deal is listen to Eli, hit that subscribe button below. And hey, while you're down there, you're probably gonna see two other subscribe buttons, right? Because the way that we run this podcast is a collaboration. So just hit all of them while you're down there. Yeah, it's like that's true.

SPEAKER_00 49:26

Do do dude right there. Just describe, subscribe to all of us and uh and we can look, we won't share the $20 with you, but um But we'll share some knowledge, and that's I would I would argue you guys are getting twenty dollars a month spread across thousands of views per, you know. That's that seems like a fair deal. Uh so anyway, that's uh keep keep that in mind. Well, um did you get to spend any time with uh with Grant at uh at this this camp? Because um Grant has been uh um we've crossed paths uh here and there and played a little bit, but uh um you know it's funny once you're like playing a different instrument, you kind of like see people in a certain light where it's like this is uh you know, you you like yeah, uh you understand somebody's like you have this respect, like wow, what what an amazing musician. This I love listening to this person play. Um, but if I'm on banjo, then I'm it's a little bit like uh you play guitar, I play banjo, it is and then the moment you start thinking more of the guitar player, it's like oh, Grant just like got a lot more famous in my mind than he was, you know, before. And this is this happens with it, whatever instrument it is, whatever I happen to be focusing on at the time. It's like, you know, it goes from that you're like your your buddy to like am I allowed to talk to you? You know, whatever.

SPEAKER_01 50:48

So well, dude, couldn't be a nicer person, but anyway, yeah, I just I honestly felt the same way because Grant, you know, people I don't know if you felt this, but like people in the like generation above us, you know, Manzanita was like that, you know what I mean? That that record like was the was the like, oh my gosh, you know what I mean? That completely like as far as progressive flat picking went, there was no banjo on the record. Sorry, Eli. Um, but it was a different sound, right? That people had like kind of never heard before. I don't know how you felt, but I remember uh what was it? It was like man, it must have been like sophomore uh or or like junior year at Denison. Um, but Grant Gordy's like the self-titled solo album came out that year. Yes, and that I I remember pterodactyl, like I heard the first like 30 seconds of that and was just like, this is our this is our manzanita, or this is our like DGQ, you know, like Brown album, you know what I mean? It's like, oh my gosh, like I'm I'm listening to the future right now. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Um and and to be able to kind of like see and converse with him at camp. This was the first time I've really had a lot of time to just kind of like, you know, nice chat with him in passing and stuff like that. He's the sweetest guy, he's the humblest guy, he's lifting everyone up, you know what I mean? He was always like every time I walked off stage, he was giving me some kind of compliment and other people too. Like, um, and this is what you learn from all those guys. The best players appreciate that in other people, you know, they're looking. Grant Gordy's not standing at the back of the auditorium looking for what's bad on stage. Do you know what I mean? He's like um, so being able to watch him, especially with Ross, because uh have you heard their new duo album together?

SPEAKER_00 52:37

I've heard uh at least I think is they do they have a third one now?

SPEAKER_01 52:41

Or is there is there I think I've heard that this is yeah, this would I think this would be like the the second one. Um let me uh get the title of this correct because it was was it Year of the Dog? Yeah, I think that's Year of the Dog is the first one, right? That's the first one, and then I feel like there was another one. Cut this out. I think there is another one. It might oh, I'm I'm searching on the wrong platform, probably.

SPEAKER_00 53:07

Yeah, because I remember when when Year of the Dog came out, and I I you know, even not thinking much of as a guitar player, just worried out a whole bunch. It was it's so great.

SPEAKER_01 53:16

Um Yeah. So they've got new CDs, um, and dang it if I can't freaking find it.

SPEAKER_00 53:27

And then there's one this might be the one you're talking about there, but there's one that's kind of uh a bunch of jazz standards. Or maybe well actually Grant has one with with Jacob Jolliffe also that's a bunch of jazz standards, so I don't know if I'm thinking of two different things at the same time.

SPEAKER_01 53:41

Um yeah. So yes, it no, I am thinking of of Year of the Dog. Sorry, I'm I'm I'm an idiot. I they must have one of them must have must have had a new album there. Um but but they got up on stage and played their version, their duo version of Dear Old Dixie. Have you heard this?

SPEAKER_00 53:56

I was just gonna say that. Yeah, it's it's in a bunch of keys, right? Is that my my memory of it?

SPEAKER_01 54:00

And they kind of treat the the like voice leading like a Sousa march, like it originally was, as opposed to like because they modulate from like G to C, you know what I mean? In in like a a like brass band kind of way. Um sweet. And and there's like so many hits that happen out of time and like sections that are like tempo, robo, or any of this kind of stuff that they're were like perfectly in sync, you know. Um and to just like it was a spectacle, dude, to to watch those two guys uh go at it. And then once again to see them like um just be humble and lifting everyone up and all this stuff, you know, these guys go up there and play one of the most mind-bending pieces of music that you've seen in years, you know, and then and then he's they're like you know, uh complimenting the students on on their stuff, you know. So it's it it's a really, really special thing um to be able to see that because I've talked about this before. I struggle with like um uh what I want to say, like mental health issues related to like self-worth and all these kind of things in music, because we're always s sitting out there comparing ourselves to the best of the best, right? Because we want to to achieve. And I think there's something like therapeutic. I I would say this to anyone that can like relate to that. In this world, somehow in the world of acoustic music, generally speaking, there's something about this music that like uh self-purges the jerks, you know what I mean? Like right, right. There's that that just doesn't exist, you know. Like, so go to the show, walk up to Grant Gordy, walk up to Kenny Smith, walk up to whoever it is, and like ask them the thing you've been dying to ask them. They they will they want to talk about it.

SPEAKER_00 55:48

I guarantee you, you know, totally they want to talk about it. Um I mean they're they're as big or if not bigger nerds than we are about you know anything you're interested in, they uh they're more as obsessed, if not more. It's funny you bring that up. I kind of think about like um again, like we spend so much time uh practicing, transcribing, kind of like uh thinking about our favorite musicians and then trying to say, like, okay, can I do this thing that they do? Does it sound like them when I do it, or am I capturing some essence of it? And and not that we're trying to be Kenny Smith or Grant Gordy necessarily, but like you you naturally do some amount of comparing when it's like this thing I've learned from this person, am I capturing this idea, or is it really far off? And then, and you know, you could really spiral in some sort of like um, you know, am I any good at this thing because I'm comparing myself to all the people I'm learning it from? And so like naturally you you kind of do that comparison thing, even if you don't mean to. But I do find that going to camps, uh, even as a teacher, I had this experience. I imagined as a student, you could view it through this lens. I think it would be a healthy way to view going to a camp. Is like I always find going to a you know, they usually hire teachers who do different things, even if it's the same instrument. Like you know, we were at Swananoa gathering, it's like they didn't hire you know 15 Monroe style Mandelin teachers because that's not, you know, they needed kind of one of everything on a bunch of different instruments. And so and I I've been noticing this more and more at each of these camps that you go up and do the faculty concert, and uh usually it's not you going up and like, oh, I did the same song as someone else, because they don't do even the same style of music, right? Like I'll go up at a camp and play, usually I go up and play some like flattened scrugs or something like that, because usually a lot of these camps will hire a bunch of people that that do a bunch of different things on banjo or whatever, and uh and so nobody plays straight ahead bluegrass on the faculty concert. So I'll be like, well, great, then that's open, I'll just do that. And and people love it, and the the faculty are are it's like what you're describing. They're like, cool, sounded great, that's awesome, man. And and I feel the same about what they're doing. And it put it reminds me, it's like uh all that comparing that I'm doing truly is in my head, and it's it's actually the real world doesn't look like my imagination of like, well, I can't do this like J.D. and I can't do that like Earl Scruggs, and I can't do it, whatever it is. It's like, well, that's certainly my perception, but then you go out in the real world and uh you can't really do those comparisons because those those imaginary like people that you're up against don't exist or they're not in the room, or they're not whatever that thing is. You know, it's like it's it's everyone is clearly a lot more um uh you know, they're their own kind of unique personal musician than than you might imagine uh people are. And so I find that definitely at camps, just like teaching around people like that um is always the case because it's like you know, masters of what they do, um, and and you don't necessarily have to worry about uh like you're not going up at the camp and being like, all right, and here's my arrangement of Stu Baker, right? Like, why would that that wouldn't make any sense, right? You know, and so you know similarly Kenny's not being like, here's my uh, you know, uh well actually he he probably would do a great version of of any jazz standard, obviously. Yeah, but you know, between between Kenny, you know Okay, well the exception is Kenny can do everything. No, but but but truly it's like well Kenny and Grant aren't gonna be it doesn't make any sense to to they stay out of each other's way in the in that regard, right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it all happens naturally. And I I feel like um so getting out in the real world is a great way to get to break me out of those those uh those feelings of like uh is am I am I the right person to be doing any of this stuff when all these other people are doing so great already? It's like well, actually out in the real world, you know, just do the job because actually when you show up to work at one of these camps, there's a need for whatever they hired you for, they hired you for a reason. And so then it's like cool, I just go to work then because it's not really about I didn't hire myself, they asked me. So I gotta just go do that work, you know.

SPEAKER_01 59:57

Dude, here's something like I will I wasn't gonna share this, but I think he would be okay with it because it's it's like right on topic. So the day before, two days or three days before camp, it must have been, I had posted a short that was on imposter syndrome, which is something that I we're kind of dancing around that topic right now, right? Of like showing up to a space and just not feeling like you have the authority to do the thing that's there. Um I put that out there, and out of the blue, we have never once communicated back and forth. Grant Gordy sent me a message on Instagram and he was like, Hey man, thanks for the video on imposter syndrome, you know?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:33

Wow, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:34

And I I didn't get this story from him, but I've heard from other folks that the album we were just talking about as being like the turning point for a generation, like Grant Gordy's self-titled solo album, almost wasn't released, or at least he wasn't exactly happy with it when he released it. I and like this is I so I this is a this is a topic in a forthcoming podcast because both Grant and Ross have agreed to come onto the show. So I'm really excited to dive into this one more.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:05

Great, absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:06

But in case you're like just to I think you know, for all of us normies out there, if you're feeling if you're feeling a little weird about any of this stuff, guess what? Like your heroes felt it too. And Grant was just brave enough to to hit publish on Spotify or whatever it was, you know what I mean. I guess back then it would have been disc makers, you know what I mean? Uh yeah, Steeny Baby. Yeah. Um and then he literally changed a generation. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:38

It was huge. Yeah. It's like it's like he could have gotten it. In my mind, I'm listening to his his Goodbye Liza Jane solo. I just have it like playing in my brain because it's so yeah, yeah. I mean, it's it's yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:49

Uh uh, I think, let's see, do I have it in this shelf? No. I'll I'll bring it onto the podcast at some point. I have, you know, those Pasantino like uh um sheet music books, you know, the really expensive ones with the nice paper, you know, that you can like transcribe and stuff. I I was addicted to those in college. I filled uh half of one up with transcriptions from that record, and I have motif for lathe, the head, and the solo all written out in staff notation. No kidding.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:19

Wow, you gotta show that to Grant. Yeah, you gotta show that too.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:21

It's like will you autograph this piece of crap that I made when I was in college?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:27

Totally. Oh, that's so good. Oh, I love that. Oh, that's awesome, man. Yeah. Uh well, I'm excited. This sounds like we got a bunch of cool, uh, cool guests coming up. I um we'll see if I get any interviews. I may uh it turns out I'm I'm going to IBM A after all. Um, I had not intended to do so, but uh Rick Ferris called about uh planned some showcases, and I thought I was out. Thank God for Rick Ferris. Good job, buddy.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:56

Get this man down to IBM A. We need boots on the ground because I won't be there this year.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:02

Yeah, well, and it'll be a it'll be a short trip because I get there the morning Tuesday, play all day, play all day Wednesday, don't go to sleep, drive back to Nashville uh at like two in the morning, Thursday morning, and fly out in the morning. So we'll see what I have time for. But I I will, I mean, what it's the same thing as as with Grant, where it's just like the amount of time I've spent hanging out with Rick and playing, uh, and what a monster singer and musician, songwriter, like everything. He's he's incredible and uh just a nice guy. And a great guy. Oh my god, what can't he do? And so um, you know, but now now I'm a guitar player. So I'm like, oh wow, Rick Ferris, the guitar player. It's like, you know, it's really it's amazing how it like changes of perspective. So maybe I can snag an interview out of him.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:51

Um but uh Bro, just bring your lab mics and get it in the car or something like that, you know? Totally, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:57

Yeah, I'll just sneakily just why are you asking me so many questions, man?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:00

Like there's like a light and a camera set up at the back of the thing. Oh, that's nothing. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we'll see. I I am excited. We'll see if I can, if I've got time, I'll go to the uh the exhibit hall where they're the people showing off guitars. I'll see how many guitars I can try and try to report back uh if if the if I found anything fascinating.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:21

Well, here's the deal go give those collings boys a hug for me. Uh yes. I usually Mark, Nolly, and and Joe are there. Um those guys are have been so nice to me and and all that kind of stuff. And as you know, I am a huge Collins fanboy, so um you're gonna have a good time.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:41

And if I do that, then I trust that they'll just hand me one for free. And I think, yeah. No, I'm gonna go. I'll tell them I'll tell them you expect that from them to me. And uh yeah, yeah. Um no, it'll be yeah, it'll be exciting. Uh uh as I when I return, well, I guess we gotta we gotta a little ways, two weeks out. But anyway, when I return, I'll I'll give my report on the stage. Oh, I can't wait to be fun.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:05

I'm so sad because I still haven't been to Chattanooga for the I know me neither.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:08

Yeah, I didn't I didn't go last year, so uh this will be my first uh I have established there is a Jimmy Johns within walking distance, so it will suffice. Uh Raleigh Raleigh really had it set up pretty nice in that way. So that was my main concern.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:23

Dude, yeah, it was easy to get a five dollar lunch around the convention center.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:28

Exactly, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. So that'll be nice. It does mean I had to, that's why I've been playing more banjo. I do need to relearn how to actually play banjo because uh I couldn't when he asked me to do that gig a couple weeks ago, I wouldn't have been able to do it that day. So I got some I got some homework. Yeah, I was like, great, yeah, exactly. Yeah yeah. Um but yeah, I think it'll be yeah, well, what's the worst that could happen? Absolutely. No, that massively embarrassed myself. Um am I not doing that?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:04

I was gonna say then then I'm gonna have to find a new co-host for the show because Eli is gonna move to, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:13

No, I mean that's just this is me. Yeah, this is just burning any bridge to any banjo gigs. So I'll be locked in on guitar. That'll be what it is.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:20

Then it's big podcast all the time.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:23

Yeah, what I'm doing is I'm going, I'm going back to IBM A to make sure everybody knows that I don't play enough banjo anymore and I don't know what I'm doing. Just we're gonna make sure everyone knows, hey, don't call me. And and go on guitar? No, he probably don't want to call me on the guitar either.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:39

But wait, how many subscribers does his banjo channel have?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:43

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, this is all I'm exaggerating, but uh, but this is the level of this is a granular level of attention that we give these things. So it'll be fine. Um before this gets any more ridiculous, Hayes, how can people find you uh outside of this podcast?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:01

Well, aside from scouring the streets of Columbus, Ohio any given day of the week, uh they can they can find me at HayesGriffin.club. That's my guitar club and uh kind of online education hub. So if you want to chat with me online a little bit about guitar, that's a great place to find it. What about you, Eli?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:20

You can find me at Eli Gilbert Guitar on YouTube, where I'll be sharing uh my my journey to learn how to flat pick these practice logs, um, falling by the wayside as I play more banjo for the time being. But those will return, uh maybe I'll do one today. Um yeah, and that'll do it. And subscribe to this YouTube channel, the Flat Pick Podcast YouTube channel. Um leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts or whatever. At the moment, you know, it doesn't seem like there's any particular reason why we need to pump those numbers up. But uh, you know, it couldn't it couldn't hurt, you know. It couldn't hurt.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:56

It couldn't hurt. I mean, let's be real. We want uh this is for the flat pick community. We're doing this to lift up this thing that we love so much. And uh the more flat pickers know about it, the more cool stuff we can do for all you guys listening. So that's a great way to help you.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:10

And the and the best way to lift up the flat picking community is to help us first, specifically. First.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:17

No, we yes, we got here first.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:19

Yeah, exactly. We promise. After you all subscribe and help us, we promise to help you. So just uh keep that in mind. Okay, this is gonna do it for the flat picking podcast. Uh thanks, folks. We'll see you next time.