SPEAKER_00 0:00

Well, howdy friends, and welcome back to another episode of the Flat Picking Podcast. I have been looking forward to this interview for quite some time. We are joined today by modern flat picking giant, the great John Stickley. John is uh kind of leading the charge, in my opinion, on uh kind of like the more progressive side of flat pick acoustic guitar. Uh I first came across him with his trio in Grand Rapids um back when I was living there, but we'll get into a lot of stuff about his influences and uh maybe some new recordings. And John's actually got kind of a new project that I think a lot of aspiring flat pickers out there would be interested in today. So before we get into any of that, John, how are you doing, my friend?

SPEAKER_01 0:48

I'm doing well. Thanks for having me on, man. Beautiful day here in Asheville.

SPEAKER_00 0:53

That's great to hear, man. I'm uh I'm I'm a little jealous. It's uh it's a little gray in Columbus up here today, but uh maybe you can send some of that sunshine up this way. I'll give it a go. Yeah, man. So um, John, I I think uh we I ran into you what at uh Blue Ridge Guitar Camp and we had the chance to like chat a little bit this past summer. Um and and Eli and I started the podcast about a month and a half after that. And you were one of the first people that I wanted to kind of talk to um for selfish reasons, mainly. Um so I I had been we've been following you for a while, and can you talk about um I know that we had mentioned before the call that that about about the trio and you've got like a new recording coming up. Um, can you just talk about uh the trio and what what made you decide on that kind of configuration as a flat picker? Because we all know you're steeped in in Tony Rice and all that stuff, but your band looks a little different than than some other flat pickers, right? So could you talk a little bit about that?

SPEAKER_01 1:57

Yeah, um, you know, every time I tell the story, I learn more about why the trio is what it is. I mean, it kind of goes back to there's a lot of parts of it, really. Um, one being that I needed a band. I was kind of like I had just ended a gig with uh Town Mountain. I was their bass player for a couple years, and I love that so much. Playing bass in a bluegrass band is the one of the funnest things I've ever done in my life. Um, but so that ended, and I didn't have anything to step into. So I just started kind of playing gigs around town. And um first person I really linked up with was Lindsay Pruitt on the violin. We were on a gig with a friend, and uh we were introduced that way. And right away I was like, Hey, would you ever want to play with me sometime? And she said, sure, just give me a call. And so she was the first person I called, and we started playing together, and then we had a bass player we played with some, and he ended up not being able to make the gig one night. And um, I got my roommate who was a drummer to play the show, and we just hit it off, man. But we were doing all sorts of stuff. It was there was it was very loosely planned, and the music was even looser than that. I mean, it was just like, hey, let's pick a fiddle tune and jam out on it and see where it goes, have some fun, and uh we were singing and stuff too, and it just I don't know, man. Something about it worked. He was also a really great uh kind of experimental drummer, so he was able to fit right in to the groove with me and Lindsay, and so that kind of became what I just started doing around town until the string dusters hired us for an opening run on their ski tour in Colorado, and that's when we turned into a real band.

SPEAKER_00 3:50

All it took was a call from the string dusters, right?

SPEAKER_01 3:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we were still we were still singing and stuff like that, and then um we went to do our second record, and we got uh Dave King from The Bad Plus, the drummer for that band uh out of Minneapolis. He came down and produced the record for us, and uh we ended up going all instrumental. He was like, Look, you guys are great good singers and stuff, but I mean, I think you're what you've got going on with your original instrumental compositions is something like I've never really heard anyone do before. And and it seems like it's kind of what you guys want to do the most. And I was like, Well, everyone always told us we need to sing more. Uh, and he was like, just trust me on this one. Let's we've got some great songs here, let's do put out this record instrumentally, uh, see how y'all like it. And we did it, and then we went and played our first festival and as an instrumental group, and no one mentioned the fact that we didn't sing at all. I mean, it was one of those things, it's like if you sing a little bit, they want more, but if you don't sing at all, they don't even think about it. Uh so anyway, that that's how kind of we became the band that we are.

SPEAKER_00 5:03

That's super cool to to hear that. Um, because I think I've been in some bands before where we were told the exact same thing, and I think that's that is kind of the common uh conception. I won't say misconception, but conception is that like people are there for the vocal tunes, right? Um, but I think anyone that's seen your show will see pretty quickly that um it's an extremely I almost liken it to like a like a rock show or like going to like a you know like a pop festival where that it's like I you you can't be doing anything but grooving along with what you guys are doing the whole time, you know. Um your your arranging is actually what struck me the first time, and maybe uh speaking to to what was going on in the conversations like in the in the studio, um what what were like as far as how you put a fiddle tune together the way you do, because it's not just you know AABB back and forth solos, right? There's there's some more thought into it than that. Like, who would you describe as your influences and what's your process for like putting together a tune like that?

SPEAKER_01 6:05

Okay, so this comes to another part of the origin story is like, okay, we started the trio and and a lot of our the stuff we did early on was rearranging fiddle tunes. So, you know, we recorded track one on our first album is Blackberry Blossom. Uh, but we instead of doing the typical bluegrass chords, we kind of nabbed the chords from uh I Want You Back, Jackson 5. Yes, you know, so it's doing like uh and then and then we changed it at the end of the we do the and then we go to the E part, you know, the B part. And that's like that's the melody of the fiddle tune, but it's also like that classic funk lick, um, especially when you play it down on the lower strings and then you put a a beat to it. So that's kind of like what how we started. And then when um I started needing more material, and I was like, okay, well, it's time to, you know, I'd written a handful of tunes, uh, instrumentals, but I was like, I really need to start making something, and maybe I'll make it with this this group in mind. So, like, okay, what what could we do that would work? And that's when I started really looking back to um the earliest music that I made back in like middle school, high school, uh in Chapel Hill. Uh all our we were big into like indie rock and math rock from that era of that time of 90s, Chapel Hill was kind of a big scene, and we stumbled into the shows as as little underage kids and started our own band. And um, so I was the drummer in the bands that we had in middle school and high school, and we were playing like overly complex, like Fugazi-ish math rock is basically what we were doing. Um, with some breakdowns and a lot of long, slow kind of drony stuff. Um, our band is actually still on Spotify, it's called Strunken White, S-T-R-U-N-K-E-N white. And uh looking that up, it's a literary pun. But we released some albums and I play drums, and so that music has always really stuck with me, and and that inspired a lot of the early trio compositions.

SPEAKER_00 8:37

Cool. That's that's cool to hear. Because I I actually saw an an article with um Premier Guitar that you had done a while back, and and you kind of name checked some of those bands. I looked them up, like uh uh Super Chunk, Archers of Loaf, and Spatula were the three names that I think you put up there. Um yeah, yeah. And like honestly, dude, when I when I listened to the first spatula track, I don't even know what it was, you know, now at this point, but I was like, this makes all the sense in the world, you know? This is like yeah, yeah, yeah. This is uh it's like, oh yeah, it wasn't Manzanita, you know. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:11

And I really wanted to like at the time, especially coming out of the bluegrass world, um, and before broken before Town Mountain and I had played in, you know, a bunch of bluegrass bands for like 15 years, um, gone to IBM A every year, and and I was just a little, I think I might have been a little tired of like the bluegrass material. Yeah. Um I love I'm everything about flat picking is my favorite thing in the world because of the the speed, the timing, the technique, um, the drive of bluegrass, but I just wanted to do something totally different, um, different rhythms, different chords, stuff like that. Um, so and there's a lot of people in the bluegrass world that do that, but still, I just um I think maybe wanted to rock a little harder too.

SPEAKER_00 10:07

Yeah, yeah. I think that's what resonated with me. I mean, no, no, no joke, man. I'm uh, you know, Midwestern bro to the to the max, you know. I was listening to dad rock and metal and and all sorts of stuff, you know, when I was a kid. So there there seriously is, I I've I found myself in your music in a huge way, you know. So that that was really meaningful to me, like when your your first album came out. Um so thank you for that.

SPEAKER_01 10:35

Absolutely, man.

SPEAKER_00 10:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, so kind of piggybacking off of what you just said, you know, you were talking about adding some of those extra influences to your flat picking and messing with different chords, messing with different rhythms. To me, the first like player that comes to mind, uh, just because he was the first one I heard that way was Tony Rice, because that's that's kind of what Tony did back in the day, right? Like um with the new acoustic sound and the stuff that he was doing with Grisman. Um, I know Eli and I have talked about this. We hear like a huge, uh just like any of us, right? There's a there's a large Tony influence in your playing and stuff. Could you talk about your relationship with Tony Rice's material and um and and maybe how that influenced your career?

SPEAKER_01 11:20

Yeah, yeah. So um, you know, early on when I was getting into music uh or getting into bluegrass after after high school and the rock era kind of um basically um found out about bluegrass through my friend Andy Thorne. He's a banjo player and plays with Leftover Salmon now. But we grew up together in Durham and we took from the same guitar teacher. Uh I wasn't learning bluegrass, I was learning like red-hot chili peppers. And uh he was learning banjo and mandolin, and uh, so our guitar teacher kind of got us together and was like, Hey, you guys should like form a little band. Um, and my my younger brother was taking guitar lessons, so uh he was like, Jeff, you you play guitar, Andy, you can play banjo, and John, you should learn mandolin. And I was like, Well, I don't even really know what a mandolin is. Um, but sure. And so Andy came over and he was like, Here's my mandolin. Um, these are the three chords you need to start, you know, G, C, and D. Uh, they're all two fingers. And I was like, Really? Just two fingers? All right. I got this. Uh, and then and he was like, and so listen to these CDs, uh, the original David Gruzman Quintet, Baylor Fleck, live art, and Sam Bush Howlin at the moon, those three albums. And I was I took those home. Uh, and I I was hooked like right away. You know, I hadn't I had heard like the Beverly Hillbillies theme song on banjo. I think that's all the only bluegrass I had heard at that point. So this is my entrance into the world of that, and I fell in love instantly with the Grisman album. I mean, I like the other two a lot, but uh something that was so it just yeah, it pushed a lot of different buttons for me. I uh and some of it was so foreign sound because I hadn't really listened to any jazz or anything at that point. So yeah, you know, hearing like 1616, I'm just like, what the hell is this? Um, em d you know, I could like I could like hear em d because it was fast and rocking and more simple. Uh so anyway, I started learning bluegrass mandolin right away. Um, and wanted to be the next David Grisman if I could. Uh, and so and then then I went to college. The band that I wanted to join already had a mandolin player and a lead singing rhythm guitarist. And so that's when I said, you know what, I should be your lead guitar player. And that's when I really started to focus on like listening more to Tony and the Grisman band and um learning some solos and stuff. And so he was really my first, you know, favorite guitar player just from that original David Grisman album.

SPEAKER_00 14:19

Yeah, that's that's cool to hear. Um, because that's not always you know, everyone's got their angle into Tony Rice, and it it's it's not always the new acoustic way, right? You know, um, so that that's kind of cool.

SPEAKER_01 14:32

I didn't know that he sang for years. It was like years before I heard like Banks of the Ohio, and I was like, Who is this? And I was like, Oh my god, it's Tony, it's from like right around that same time as the Grisman stuff. Whoa! And so yeah, I got and you know, I I experienced all this through going to the CD store. Like, that's how we how lucky we are to be so old, you know. Yes, so I would just like I'm like, Oh, bluegrass album band, who is this, you know?

SPEAKER_00 15:02

Umink, right?

SPEAKER_01 15:03

Yeah, yeah. Um, and so that was my first guitar player that I really listened to or even knew about was Tony. Um, and it was the Tony knew acoustic stuff, yeah. So trying to base my guitar playing on that from day one um is is kind of how I fell in love with with Tony's playing, and then you know, no one I heard after that seemed to measure up really. Um there was just such a wealth of music, and like we're we're so lucky he was around so long to make so many records, and they all have this great beautiful tone because he produced them too. And so yeah, he's just you know, he's like the step one for me. And then then I found out about other people, yeah. Uh but yeah, Tony, Tony, what he did, and and for primarily with Grisman and the new acoustic stuff. Um, yeah, that was like definitely my biggest guitar influence from day one.

SPEAKER_00 16:01

So I have a lot of students that want to access that sound, you know, and and I I'm sure yeah, you've got lots of stories about this because uh it's it's hard for anyone who's tried like that. New acoustic material is a little bit harder to access than the the grass stuff that he did, right? It's not just like G C D, all that kind of stuff. Were there any tunes or solos in particular that you that kind of unlocked some of that for you that where you had like an aha moment kind of um studying that one piece?

SPEAKER_01 16:32

You know, it's really funny because to this day I still can't play most of his new acoustic songs, you know. But uh a few years back, some friends of mine here in Asheville, we we put together a nerdgrass revival and we we learned all these deep cut songs that like neon tetra and stuff like that. And uh that was my first time really diving into to learning some of those songs properly, but uh yeah, you know, I think it was just it was more like that era, the drive, the feel and the sound of it. Um try, you know, trying to mimic that probably more than anything had the biggest effect on my playing and my style because you can tell it's like you know, when you play, you build up your muscle memory so that your fingers are strong enough so you can play soft.

SPEAKER_00 17:32

Yes, yes, you're like it's like whoa, antithetical or something, right?

SPEAKER_01 17:38

Yeah, yes, it's like Tony's like the loudest, strongest player, and because of that, he could play in really light with a ton of tone. Um, I don't know, that's the kind of rambling response, but more so than learning, like more so than tabbing out any of the heads of like gasology or anything like that. It's more about it'd be more about jamming along with the song and making it feel as rockin' and as tasteful as that. That's kind of like one of my guess my guiding principles is you know, rock so hard that it's chill.

SPEAKER_00 18:20

Yes. I I love that, and and I think there's some like profound wisdom in the way that you just described accessing that material because, like you said, it wasn't like you were sitting down and learning every note off of the record, you were listening to other musical qualities that are just as, if not more important, right? Like the the tone of the instruments, the time feel of them locking in together. Um, that's really cool, John. I I appreciate that that view.

SPEAKER_01 18:50

Yeah, thanks, man. And I think that's it goes it gets bigger because it's like that's the experience it's you want to have in a jam too. It's like yeah, you get in that to that flow state where it's not hard anymore. And um that's the feeling that I'm always chasing when I'm playing music. So I'm not trying, it's not not really looking forward to my pass at the solo. I'm more like trying to just get into the feel of the whole thing so I can have that feeling that I've had at a festival jamming at 3 a.m. where everyone is so like just beyond you're so locked in that it's it just plays itself and you it's it's like a musical ecstasy. That's like, and so I do that at home. I'll go outside and like I put my buds in and play with play along with stuff, and I'm like, I just want to have this feeling right now. Like, I'm not trying to learn anything new, I'm just going for the feeling that I have to do it along with the record now because there's no one else here to play with.

SPEAKER_00 19:55

Yeah, and but I mean, uh I think my teachers would always r recommend this regularly, and and it's stuff I hear in expert players like you say all the time jamming along with the masters on those CDs and trying to achieve what you're talking about. There's that's like a deep well of knowledge, right? Like there's something valuable in that. You uh you can't call David Grisman to come over to your house and jam, right? So the best thing you got are his records. Um yeah, yeah, yeah. That's cool. So it something that I hear in there it is like uh almost kind of like uh you you mentioned flow state, you mentioned not looking forward to the solo, but plugging in more to the moment. Like mindfulness is something that I've kind of been exploring over the last couple years, and it sounds like whether or not that's like a term that you practice or or use, you you have skills that you have maybe developed to kind of access the moment and stay with the music. Like, um, what does that look like when you're practicing, other than just maybe jamming along with the record and going for the you know, the groove?

SPEAKER_01 21:03

Uh, I think the main thing for me is is when I'm practicing. I I I try to practice things that are fun, you know, like uh and so my background is I I don't I never really took a lot of formal lessons, especially in bluegrass. Um, and I don't I didn't study it in school or anything. So everything I've learned is kind of just my own thing or what other really smart people have told me. Uh, but you know, one thing I like to do is try to get into that flow state with whatever I'm working on. So it's if say it's like a cross picking pattern, you know. Um, yeah, so anything that I can do really. Slowly and really repetitively for a really long time. Yeah. That's kind of that's kind of what I hone in on when I'm practicing by myself. Um and it could be like a rhythm better. Uh so I that's kind of what I practice a lot, is is improv um repetitive things where I can kind of try to work in ideas I know that I'm not that great at, you know, like harmonies and um some voicings and things. So that's kind of what I try to do when I'm practicing.

SPEAKER_00 22:45

That's that's super cool. Um I think there's like kind of a another deep truth in what you were just describing there too, that like um because you're a teacher. We'll talk about that here in a sec, too. That you know, you've got some online resources that we're investing in and stuff like that. But um when you're working with a student, do you ever find that like uh they don't try something for long enough before they abandon it? You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 23:11

Yes, yeah, yeah. I think I think a lot of the time it's like working with you know with the skills you've got doing and then trying new things within what you're already good at. You know, it's like pushing the limits that way. Like take take one thing you can do and try to do some new things with that, and then that will probably connect the dots for you to the next place you're trying to get to.

SPEAKER_00 23:38

I I love that.

SPEAKER_01 23:39

Um a lot a lot of the things I've figured out over the years too, um it wasn't intentional. It was like it was just, hey, I'd been playing guitar for three hours and I just did 12 new things I've never even thought of doing before, you know, and I didn't I may never do that again. Or I, you know, who knows the next time that'll pop up in a solo, but uh that's that's always how I've kind of advanced.

SPEAKER_00 24:09

I love that. Um once it once again, I think there's some kind of um profound truth in that that at least I I've seen, or it even in myself practicing, it's like you you have to stick with it for a minute and open yourself to the the universe. That's something I also hear in like what you're describing too, is you have like an openness. You know, it's you have to lay your uh if you're gonna jam on something for an hour, you know what I mean? It's like you're kind of just like receiving whatever's coming into your mind. I've um yeah, this is this is cool.

SPEAKER_01 24:43

A lot of a lot of my uh aha moments didn't come from me, you know what I mean? It's like it just it it yeah, it was allowing myself to get to the place where I can get you know receive it.

SPEAKER_00 24:55

Yeah, that's that's awesome, man. That's very uh zen and flow state, you know, for like kind of relating back to those words. Um I appreciate that. Um well we're kind of dancing around the the topic of like you know, practice and process and learning and stuff. Um, I was really excited when I I hopped online a few weeks ago and saw that you kind of have a new collaboration with Bennett Sullivan, right? Yep. Um can you talk a little bit about that, man?

SPEAKER_01 25:24

Yeah, so Bennett is a good friend I've known a long time. Um and so he has been running the BanjoLix instructional site and app for a couple years, maybe two or three years now, and has got a nice um bunch of students and a community set up through that. And uh he approached me about wanting to get into the flat picking world. Um so I was like, okay, well, tell me about it. And I he told me about his process and how he's set up the site and the app, and and I was like, okay, that that sounds pretty interesting. Um and it sounded like something that might work for me. Uh I have always been like primarily consider myself an art a per you know performance artist. Yes, yes. Because because I didn't take the you know, I didn't study music in what I considered to be the traditional way. I'm always like, well, so Ben had asked me to do this, and I'm like, well, you know, I've taught lessons before, but you know, I don't I just always feel like I don't know all that much. Um and he's like, he's like, dude, I've played with you and we've spent enough time together that I know that you can you can do this. And I was like, okay, well, if if you feel that way, let's go for it. Um, so I started exploring what he was doing, and basically it's like we've recorded all these lessons you can access, they're very organized, and they cover all these topics. And the reason it works for me, and I think the reason it might work for certain other people is that that you can do this all on your own time. So I go in for a day, like one day per month, to his studio, and we record a bunch of lessons, a bunch of content, and we release it, and that's new every single month. We've got like you know, 120 episode uh lessons up already. And uh this is all just stuff you can work on on your own time, and but we're there as part of the community, and we can give feedback and share videos and stuff like that too. Um and so another cool thing that I that I liked about his site is that it's very much making sure that you're building from the ground up and focusing on the fundamentals that are gonna get you to where you want to be. Um, and I can speak from personal experience that, like I said, I didn't get into bluegrass uh, you know, starting with Bill Monroe and then going to Tony Rice. Like I jumped right in and started playing Tony Rice solos and rhythm the best I could without even thinking about what Tony had listened to to get to where he is or what those how why he sounded so good because he had played all those years with JD Crow. Yes. Um and so I experienced when I moved to Asheville specifically back in 2005 or so, um I started jamming with people, and I realized that my rhythm and even my soloing, what I was already a professional musician at this time, but it didn't sound right to me, and it didn't fit in with the the sound of the music that these people were playing. And you know, these are amazing pickers. It's like Asheville has this rooted traditional sound, and I was like, where does that come from? How do you get that? So I started spending more time with people and uh doing more jamming, and and they're like, Well, did you ever listen to Carter Stanley play rhythm guitar? It's it's it's more like that, and I'm like, no, and so I did, and I couldn't believe how incredible it sounded, and I started doing it and then started doing it at jams, and it's it's like the basic bluegrass rhythm, you know. Uh I'm out of tune, but with an open B string, it's like beautiful G chord ringing throughout. Um, nothing like Tony Rice plays, yeah. But uh all of a sudden I felt like I could lock in with a jam. So I had never gone and learned that basic bluegrass rhythm. Um, and so I it took me a while to go back and do that, but basically trying to help people, you know, not skip steps to get to get to sound as good as you want. But you know, we talk about the philosophical stuff and everything too. Um, there's lots of tracks, lots of videos of me playing rhythm guitar really, really slow.

SPEAKER_00 30:07

Yeah.

unknown 30:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:09

It's like you can just jam along with me and then we bump it up and up and up. Um, and then we go into songs, like you know, we try to harp on a lot of the jam songs that you would want to be able to play if you want to go out to Jack of the Wood and sit in at the Bluegrass Jam. Um, yeah, it's just it's been an amazing experience for me just exploring the instructional side of things, kind of mining my brain for knowledge that I didn't know was in there, um, and talking about all sorts of stuff. And then me and Bennett collab a lot too. We do a lot of like guitar banjo back and forth, like how do these instruments work together? What's the best way to accompany this? Blah blah blah.

SPEAKER_00 30:48

That's neat, man. That that was almost one thing I wanted to talk about too, is like you know, having a multi-instrumental kind of um site or whatever like that, you know, like yeah, being able to kind of take that because that I'm sure you found too part of the whole reason that you know your bluegrass rhythm may have sounded weird or something in the beginning is because you weren't feeling it lock in with those other instruments. So, like, how does a banjo and a guitar like talk with one another and and all that kind of stuff, right?

SPEAKER_01 31:16

Yeah, yeah. It's like you know, Jimmy Martin and Tony's rhythm was the sounded the way it did because it was played with JD Crow, you know, to a certain tempo and speed. It's like Carter Stanley's rhythm guitar playing sounds perfect with his band.

SPEAKER_00 31:35

Yeah, you know. Yeah, that's that's really cool, man.

SPEAKER_01 31:38

And it's that that rhythm style is designed that way to fit in and sound right and swing right.

SPEAKER_00 31:44

Yes. Swing is the big deal, right? I think that was something that I didn't get either uh because I I think a lot of us have that that uh tendency to kind of maybe uh circumvent step one when we're learning. Because your entry point is never step one for anything in in music, right? Right. Um but I really appreciate the fact that you're kind of like because we're talking like we talked about, we've already gone through your musical catalog, we're talking about like adding rock elements and all these other crazy things. But you know what I mean? But it's like, hey guys, yeah, Carter Stanley, let's go look at that for a sec, right? You know, like let's let's get that G chord swinging. Um that's really cool, man. I'm actually looking at your your site right now in the uh Rhythm Guitar 101 course, and it looks like we've got what, like 11 lessons here. Um like step-by-step progressive. That's that's super cool, man. Um so anyone that's watching or listening to this right now, uh, if you go to banjo licks.com, uh and then is there a is there a specific link for you'll find it if you just go to banjo licks.com, right?

SPEAKER_01 32:49

Yeah, and there's also it's also bluegrassguitarlix.com will take you to the guitar site. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 32:54

Yeah, bluegrassguitarlicks.com. Yeah, man, that's great. Um so ever everybody check that out because I'm I'm kind of sitting on the edge of my seat listening to you talk about this stuff. Because there's always that like we each have our kind of like uh blind spots. So it it sounds like you've discovered some things that I hear a lot of other like players turn to educators discovering, like in reckoning with your own style, part of your educational process becomes helping other people like avoid the steps that like you missed or whatever. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 33:32

You know, I would be such a better player if I had started, you know, where I had to back up to. Um, and yeah, that the other the other unique part about this for me and Bennett as well. I mean, he's I guess a little technically more uh schooled than I am, but we are both very busy touring musicians. Yes. Um, and when we're not touring, we're usually playing around town. And like I said, that that's kind of what I considered myself to be before getting into this. But um if you want to take something away from this this course, it's gonna be everything is gonna be related to what we're actually doing for a living every night on stage, and so it's gonna have that perspective to it, not just um, not just the purely like academic side of it. So um, and the cool thing too is that Bennett knows the names of some of these chords that I play that I'm still trying to figure out what they're actually called.

SPEAKER_00 34:34

Well, it's good to have that, right? Like this kind of binary thing that way. Um, yeah, you gotta have the the egghead and then the guy who can actually do it, you're right. Right, right. No, man, that's that's so cool to hear. Um I I think a lot of people will resonate with that, you know, because most people who are coming to this stuff don't know though, you know, like what a E flat minor nine chord, you know what I mean, like any of that that kind of stuff. So to have the perspective of someone who's more practical and and like learned it by ear and stuff like that, I I feel like that's the way in the Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:11

There'll be a practical application to everything that we teach for sure.

SPEAKER_00 35:15

Yeah, that's great. Um another thing that I notice uh on the website here, you guys have like a community, it seems like. Uh yeah, so i i is that like a an integral part of the the process, you would say, like people posting questions or any of that kind of stuff. Yeah, how's that?

SPEAKER_01 35:31

Absolutely. Yeah, that's kind of my favorite part of it. Uh, if I d I don't know if I'd be down if that part wasn't there because I want suggestions, questions, and I'd love to be able to share my thoughts on on anything anyone you know has to ask. So, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:47

Absolutely. Well, that's great, man. Well, like I said to anyone listening to this right now, um, go ahead and check out uh did you say it was uh bluegrassguitarlix.com is the URL?

SPEAKER_02 35:58

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 35:59

Yep. And it looks like we've got a monthly membership for 29 or um an annual for 300, so you can save some save some cash if you sign up for the annual one that way too. Um but yeah, this is it that I was super excited, like I said, John, when I was like, yes, he's getting into the education realm. Now I can go steal John Stickley's uh approach to guitar.

SPEAKER_01 36:20

Well, I gotta say, man, you've been a big influence on me, that's for sure. Oh, dang, dude. That's I really I really dig your style and and your sense of humor and um everything that you do online as well. So I consider you absolutely one of the best.

SPEAKER_00 36:35

Oh man, John. You don't know how seriously, dude, you don't know how much that means. Holy crap. Um I'm gonna I'm gonna get I'm I'm getting goosebumps. I'm gonna get embarrassed here. We better talk about something else. No. But seriously, thanks, man. That that yeah. Um this is why we do this podcast. Seriously, like um Marcel and I talk about this in all of our content, and Eli and I too. Like the thing that we do is like so weird and and like niche that like uh rising tide lifts all ships, man. You know, we're like I I I see it as like we're all in this together, and I want this show to lift up people like you and connect you with connect us together, you know, the the whole community, and hopefully someone um I know that there are lots of people out there that can sign up for bluegrassguitarlakes.com and get something profound out of it. So um I I I look forward to seeing where all that goes for you, dude. Um yeah, wishing you guys the best of luck with that. And if we can help you anyway, you know where we are. All right. Yeah, man. Um sorry, let me head back to the notes here. Oh, yeah, so um kind of shifting gears a little bit uh away from the education stuff. Um, I I hear rumors that one, maybe there's a new recording in the works for the John Stickley trio, and there's kind of a new duo project that you've been um putting some effort into lately. So why don't you give us a little bit uh about those?

SPEAKER_01 38:11

Yeah, so the trio, you know, um that will always be running as my main uh artistic outlet and probably my main my main touring thing as well. So we we're planning to kind of keep that going as long as everybody's in. Uh and we're heading into the studio this winter to cut some some new tracks that we're really excited about. Um so with that band, it's like you know, when Miles said he had his his great quin quintet, and he's like, Yep, this is just like the best band I'll ever have. We've done it so long, now we're so tight, and it's just like a hundred percent all the time. I feel that same way with the trio. It's like we've been doing it. I mean, Hunter's the newest member, he's been with us six years. Um, and Lindsay has been with me since the beginning, and it's been so that's been like 15 years or something. So we just know each other inside and out, everyone is totally self-actualized and is their best version of themselves in the band, and everyone brings equal input to it, so it's just like a perfect trifecta that we absolutely adore and will hope to keep going forever. Um yeah, getting and getting in the studio with them too is just so much fun because everyone's like a genius, you know. It's like like you said, rising tides raises all ships. Um you gotta hire musicians that are better than you to be in your band, and then you will become better too. And that's how I feel about the trio, you know.

SPEAKER_00 39:43

Man, that's so inspiring to hear. And I mean, Lindsay is one of the most dynamic fiddle players I've ever heard. Could you talk more about maybe like the each of their individual influences that they bring to the trio and stuff like that specifically? Because I it's yeah, I get the sense that that they're just as deep as you are, you know.

SPEAKER_01 40:03

Lindsay, Lindsay is way cool. You should you should have her on sometime. Yeah. She okay, so her dad used to play with Vassar Clements back in the day. Um, when he would play in Florida, Steve was part of uh Vassar's band when he when Vassar would like come to that region. And uh he also made Dentures Lindsay's dad, and so he made Vassar Clements teeth. And I told that story to Sam Bush the other night, and it cracked him up to no end. It was so awesome. Uh and then so so she grew up hearing Vassar Clements in her kitchen as a little baby, you know, like and so her dad was a new grass, bluegrass musician, and when she got old enough to learn fiddle, they they got her a nice violin, and she said, Nope, I'm learning classical, I don't want to play bluegrass or any of this stuff. And so she rebelled from bluegrass first, went and learned classical, and uh got a degree in performance uh from Belmont. Yep. And like right after college or towards the end of college, got totally back into bluegrass again. And um, so it's cool. She's not like you know, you know, when you hear classical fiddle players who play bluegrass and you're like, I do.

SPEAKER_00 41:29

I do. I mean, we're talking about tone and time feel earlier, right?

SPEAKER_01 41:32

You know, like yeah, so so she has a really, really cool version of that, like where she knew exactly what bluegrass was supposed to sound like and how it sounds, studied and learned classical technique, then came back to bluegrass, and really I think she like land, you know, of course she could play gypsy jazz too, so she landed right in back in the the new acoustic jams in Nashville, and then eventually moved to Asheville, and that's when we met, and so she is just a very, very, very deep uh musician, uh, and can you know it's like you know when you're gonna hand her the solo that it's gonna be incredible every time and it's gonna be different, and she can flow and she can play jazz. And I've got her now um in the trio. We both synthesize bass, so we have our signal split at and we have two DIs on our board, and one is has a bass effect on it, and that she'll switch and play bass with her thumb on her five string.

SPEAKER_00 42:37

I'm so glad you talked about that because with a POG 2. Yeah, seeing you guys was so confusing the first time because I'm like I'm like, where's that sound coming from? You know, because it yeah, but now knowing that it changes, because I assumed can you tell me actually about your bass sound now, like how how you get that on your guitar?

SPEAKER_01 42:55

I do the same thing. We split we split our signal into two different DIs with, and so I have an A-B switch that goes back and forth. And the one of one DI has uh it just has a uh what's it called, electroharmonic bass nine effect, and that's it, that's the only effect on that channel. Um and so it just drops my guitar to a bass. Um and then she has the same thing, but her she uses a pog two, which can drop her fiddle down two octaves, and her bass, when she does that, her bass is bigger than mine. I mean, it sounds enormous. Um but it was funny because I was like, okay, can you just now play bass over this section to me? And she's like, How do you do that? I was like, Oh, you just play the root notes, and she's like, her head exploded, you know. She's just like, I I've never done that. You know, I play fiddle, I play violin, like never have I on the one. Uh and uh, you know, I've never done this in my life. I don't even really know what chords are happening right now. Like her brain, watching her brain like figure out to play. Like electric bass is like hilarious.

SPEAKER_00 44:02

It's so cool. But it's like, it's kind of like what you said, and and this is not like uh I hope no one misinterprets this. Like, there's no hate on the like, like you said, classical violinist playing bluegrass, or like bluegrass guitar player trying to go play jazz. Like, the anytime you're kind of crossing these genre things, or like you know, you're forced to do this stuff where you're just like, oh my god, I've never once thought about how that works, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:28

So never had she ever been in the position to like play root note bass, root five bass.

SPEAKER_00 44:35

But it's like if you if you're like us, if you're just like dudes that grow up playing in like indie rock bands, like you have, I don't know about you, but like I was definitely behind the drum kit and the bass at very you know what I mean. It's like you just rotate or something, you like and you don't even think about it.

SPEAKER_01 44:50

You're like, yo, yo, the bass is the easy, like the bass is the easiest part. Yeah, exactly. Only thing easier is the drums because you don't have to think about notes at all. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 45:01

I love it. We're gonna get so many uh hate comments from bass players and drummers in the comments right now. That's great, man. Lindsay's already in the comments now. Uh yeah, yeah. Um, well, speaking of drummers, can you talk about Hunter a little bit too? And like, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:17

Yeah, so he um he has an interesting story. He uh is from Memphis and he went to I think it is it what's it um was it Tulane? Is that the one in no he went to the he was going to college uh to go for drum performance at the school in New Orleans and like his first week of school um that is the right school, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 45:46

The hurricane hit.

SPEAKER_01 45:48

Yeah. Oh, Katrina? Katrina hit on his like his first week of college. Oh yeah. And so so he transferred to, I guess there is there a two-lane Chicago?

SPEAKER_00 46:02

Let's see.

SPEAKER_01 46:03

Or he transferred to Chicago.

SPEAKER_00 46:07

That's crazy. So yeah, I was gonna say, gotta get away from that. Yeah, gotta get away from that.

SPEAKER_01 46:12

Anyway, so he yeah, he had to trade, he had to leave and went to another branch of the school. Um, and then he did a bunch of other things. One of the cool things he did like over the summer was I guess this was when we was in Boston, he did like pipe organ restoration.

SPEAKER_02 46:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:29

Where they were going in and like disassembling and like doing the leather, the valve stops, and like replacing all that stuff, and basically going into these century-old churches, you know, yeah, organs and rehab.

SPEAKER_00 46:42

That's like a like I went to a school that had one of those type of pipe organs, and like I think that dude was paid pretty handsomely because that's like kind of a very niche uh right, like skill set at this day and age. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:56

So anyway, he did that, and then he eventually ended up back at UT Knoxville. Um and I think that's where he eventually graduated from with a jazz and percussion performance degree. Uh that's I'm probably wrong on a couple of those facts, but he has a degree and he's amazing, and he played a lot of jazz and um other things in in Knoxville for years before we basically found him through a friend, um, Daniel Kimbrough, uh, the bass player with Jerry Douglas, yeah, lives in Knoxville, and he was the guy who was like, Hey, you guys looking for somebody? Like, this guy Hunter might be really cool. That's cool, man. And that's how we met. But he one of the things we were looking for in a drummer at that time was someone who could bring more of a like creative expression, like an approach that could kind of like balance some of the stuff that me and Lindsay were doing, and um, just do a little bit more of a round uh, you know, experimental, well-rounded like approach to drumming, more so than just holding down the groove. Yeah, you know, kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 48:04

Yeah, that's well, uh I would say that you know, that's a pretty good way to describe his style with you guys because it's not just like uh dropping a rock drummer behind a bluegrass guitar and fiddle, you know what I mean? Like the the way that you guys work together is very dynamic. Um even the way that I love how the like you mentioned a while ago, that drums aren't pitched, you don't have to think about melody and stuff, but the way that he plays with you guys is melodic in the sense that it interacts with like the lines that you play and stuff like that. I feel like that's something I've always appreciated about that trio format. Because where do where do you see a acoustic guitar fiddle drum trio, right? Like that's a pretty unique um format. And yeah, it's it's awesome, man. You've you've assembled a good crew.

SPEAKER_01 48:55

Thank you, thank you. And and like I said, I mean it was it was kind of funny when we first started, and we've we have done things along the way, like adding doing the bass thing, and um we've made changes along the way to make it make more sense than it did at first.

SPEAKER_00 49:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:11

And uh it's feeling it's it's it's fun because it's a trio. It's like, and we both do the bass thing, so there are no breaks in the music at all. Like you are never just laid back chilling, playing rhythm while someone does their thing. It's like everyone is always fully involved in whatever's happening.

SPEAKER_00 49:30

I love that. Um, that's probably I I get like I'm hearing you say that, and I'm like, that's how like Getty Lee and like Alex Lifeson talk about Rush, you know what I mean? Like, because it was it was just a three-o, right? But man, the sound that came out of those three guys was uh do you listen to Rush? I guess I never never made that connection, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:51

Um, not really. Uh you know what's funny is since and like this trio, you would think we like listen to all this prog and stuff, but it really just kind of is a natural thing that happened, and people coming up and seeing us in her, they're like, dude, you guys have to have you must have listened to the Dixie Dregs a lot growing up, and I'm like, never heard of them. You know, um, so and uh King Crimson, you know, these are all bands that I've now found out about through people telling me that the trio sounds like that. And I'm like, oh, I should go listen to that.

SPEAKER_00 50:21

Yeah, but but I I think there's something beautiful in what you just said there too, in that like um you just naturally ran with the the music. So like if I'm tying things together that I've heard you say this entire hour, you practice music that you like and that fires you up, right? And and that's kind of something that um uh uh sorry, that was a little rainy. Um so you you practice music that you like. Um you've incorporated all of these elements of like various elements of streams of music that you just like like to listen to. You didn't limit yourself to Tony Rice. I feel like there was a period in my life where people were like, you should only listen to bluegrass and do that kind of thing, you know? Um so it's just really cool to hear you what I want to say, kind of independently invent a prog style just because you were open to the stuff that you liked. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 51:17

That's yeah, and it came it came after that period of only listening to bluegrass for 10 years, you know what I mean? Like and all and like only practicing bluegrass guitar for that long.

SPEAKER_00 51:29

Yeah, that's man. Well, then I guess I'm about to come up on my prog period here, you know? Like dude, enjoy my friend. Yeah, teach me sensei. That's awesome. Um, well, John, this has been an awesome conversation, my friend. And and I thank you so much for carving out some time today to to chat with me. Before we get out of here, do you want to let folks know where they can find you and um and and maybe yeah, any anything that you got coming up that you want to talk about?

SPEAKER_01 52:00

Yeah, just check out johnstickly.com. That's like my tour and everything. That should have um all the stickly trio stuff and the stuff I'm doing with Larry Keel. Um, and yeah, that's another thing. Check out uh Larry Keel and John Stickley duo. We're we're out there playing, and we got a couple runs left before the year's over. Right. Uh it's great to play with my hero and it's just so much fun.

SPEAKER_00 52:23

But talk about the father of like modern Prague like jam acoustic guitar, like, oh man, like watching Larry, I could watch him shred all day, man.

SPEAKER_01 52:32

He's uh we we have a really good time. We we try to do like a throwback duo style kind of thing, it's and that's what it is, but it always gets super crazy by the end. Um, so that yeah, and then you know my Instagram, John Stickley Trio, uh, everything I do is on there, and just those are probably the two main places Instagram and my website.

SPEAKER_00 52:55

Um, but great, man. And and yeah, and if you guys are looking for some hot licks or for taking your bluegrass guitar play into the next level, then definitely check out bluegrassguitarlicks.com. I'm I'm really excited to see uh how that takes off for you guys. So um thanks again, John. You're the best, man. Uh we'll we'll have you back sometime soon, all right?

SPEAKER_01 53:16

I'll look forward to it.

SPEAKER_00 53:17

Thank you. Peace, man.