SPEAKER_00 0:00

I I don't know when people will be listening to this, uh, maybe a little bit in the future, but uh I received a text from Hayes uh a couple days ago, which was a little shocking at first uh for two reasons. One, he uh appeared to be extending uh his what some folks refer to as the social finger. He appeared to be brandishing that at me in this photo. Uh but that was alarming enough, but it was also that there was a splint or a cast or something on there. So if for folks who don't already know, Hayes has um uh been gravely injured. I don't I don't mean to joke because this is it really it sucks, but I'm trying to keep a light heart about this one, so joke away. Okay, good, good. Yeah. I we laughed to keep from crying. But Hayes, maybe could you since this really is uh impacting your your flat picking, uh this could not be more relevant. But yeah, Hayes, tell us tell us again this uh bizarre and unfortunate story.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

Oh, so this bizarre and unfortunate story begins with me trying to be a responsible musician, Eli. I wanted to get better gas mileage, so I decided to sell my current car and purchase a Toyota Camry, which is the sensible move, everyone knows. Yeah, so I take my old car, my Nissan kicks up to the car wash, run it through the car wash, pull it into the kind of vacuum bay there to kind of get to work. And as soon as I hop out, I I see some like dirt on my front seat, and I just take my left hand, middle finger, and start like scratching at it, you know? And then I feel this pop in my middle finger. There's no pain or anything like that, but I just feel this weird, like, you know, like did you ever have like a grandpa or an older guy in your life that would like shake your hand and and rub the bones together and do that thing where you're like, ooh, you know, like that there's like stuff moving inside there that shouldn't be like, you know, totally, totally, yeah, yeah. It was like that feeling, you know. I was like, ooh, you know, like what happened? I kind of pulled my hand back and looked at it, and my front knuckle on my middle finger was just like drooping. And that was like telling my mind, you know, I was like, straighten out, come on, let's go, buddy. And it wouldn't do anything. So um I started, I kind of started to freak out a little bit, and uh my wife was there and I was like, hey Quinn, I'm trying not to freak out right now, but I can't extend my middle finger. And I held up my left hand, and she knew exactly what that meant, that it was on my left hand. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 2:35

Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:36

It's like middle finger on your mind, picking hand, who cares? Chop that thing off, you know what I mean? But like, but but this was a I I started to kind of spiral and like no joke, dude. I I felt that pop in my hand, and the first word that came into my mind was windfield.

SPEAKER_00 2:53

Yeah, man, even you you texted me about this a couple days ago, and we we talked about it a little bit, and I said, Oh man, that sucks. And we joked about it a little bit, but I didn't even like trying to keep a light uh energy about it, even then. I was like, I don't even want to ask, but I just you said six to eight weeks, and I was like, oh no, dude, that's yeah, that's Winfield.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

Wow, uh Winfield's seven weeks away right now. I wonder what that means.

SPEAKER_00 3:18

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally.

SPEAKER_01 3:21

Oh man.

SPEAKER_00 3:22

So so yeah, that's official. Like that's that's it's just done deal. There's Winfield is out for this year.

SPEAKER_01 3:29

I I could, you know, like my registration is still active and stuff, and I could go, like, you know, uh long story uh short or whatever. After all of that, I I finally see my like I go to the urgent care, they splint me up in this, you know, like kind of crazy thing, and then I see a hand specialist a few days later. Um and he gives me this nice, like elegant, you know, like you can barely even see this splint on camera right now. Um his deal was like, move the fingers as much. He's like, try to play guitar, you know what I mean? He's just like, don't bend that joint, but as long as that joint is secure, like move the fingers, do everything you would normally do. Um, and and for a hot second, I was like, ah, do I try to like pull something off? Do I try to, and I'm like, seven weeks, like I've spent two years practicing these arrangements, you know what I mean, to get them up to snuff. So yeah. Um, my deal, everyone's asking me, they're like, Well, are you gonna go anyway? Maybe just to watch. And I was like, Man, I'm keeping a positive mindset right now, but if I was sitting in the front row at the national flat pick contest, like not being able to play, uh my mindset might turn a little darker.

SPEAKER_00 4:39

It's asking a lot. That's yeah, there's it's there's there's a reasonable level of uh of of of calm that you can muster up in this situation, and that probably is pushing things to yeah, yeah, there's no no need for that.

SPEAKER_01 4:54

So so no windfield. I even had to cancel a camp that I was teaching at the end of the month just because I didn't it's a jam camp, so the whole point was to sit there and like play with everyone. So if it if it was like a teaching camp, you know, I've been keeping my regular private students and we've been productive, you know, but um it really has kind of like it's up-ended things in a kind of a beautiful way. I'm choosing to see it as a beautiful thing because I'm evaluating all of these things that I haven't since I was 16. You know what I mean? Like stuff in my playing and and my technique and and all that kind of stuff. So it's it's been fun to kind of re-engage with that, but it's also you know, a setback. I can definitely call it that.

SPEAKER_00 5:40

Yeah, sure. I mean, yeah, but you you had plans, man. Yeah, I think that's uh that is always hard. It's one thing, I guess it's you know, the reason I stopped playing guitar when I was younger, um, yeah, that was kind of my original instrument that I was really interested in and and had gone to college for, and you know, before I even played any bluegrass or played banjo or anything, and I had a an issue with the ulnar nerve that goes through your elbow, you know, and so I was getting a lot of numbness and and that kind of thing, never any pain, but it was definitely like if I keep going in the way I'm going, I'm gonna make cause bigger problems. And I never really solved it at the time. Um long circuitous route of like a surgery and a bunch of every possible thing you can do to work on it and and whatever. I basically just had I just stopped playing guitar, it just didn't wasn't working, just stopped playing. And uh that's how I got eventually into the banjo and and whatever it was. Um but it was interesting then coming back to the guitar uh you know, here and there over the last couple of years, but but definitely m a lot more in the last you know, six months. I was a little concerned. I was like, well, I don't have this problem coming back yet, but I know that it could come back, right? It could, you know, whatever. So it was kind of a renewed sense of of um of purpose when it came to like being relaxed and uh trying to have good habits and just being trying to be responsible with with the way that I play. Um and which is not the same with what you're going through, you know. It was not a result of like, you know, kind of poor technique or anything like that, but just the kind of the gratitude of like when I am playing, being like, wow, okay, this you don't know what it's gonna feel like tomorrow.

SPEAKER_01 7:23

And so you can't take it for granted, right? Like you have to that it's like you said, that could be a good North Star to kind of keep you on the the path to good technique and relaxation and breathing and stuff. And I I would, you know, you you said a minute ago, this is not the same story. Hey, maybe it is, because like I I talked to my doctor about this. I was like, would a would this tendon snap, you know, if like due to overuse, you know, or something like that. And he was like, It's possible, you know. Yeah, um so I I think I'm still kind of in that mindset that you were just talking about where I'm like I'm reevaluating what have I been doing with my left hand and what what's naturally going on and what can I maybe do to like make that a little healthier and and kind of reduce the wear that might be happening, you know. He my doctor was even like he was like, How much water do you drink every day? You know, like all these kind of things. And I'm like, oh my god, like dehydration can solve this. And like he says that, and I'm like grabbing my water bottle right now to take a sip. Yeah, good, good, good, good.

SPEAKER_00 8:25

Yeah, man. I I uh every time you like whatever's going on, you go see doctor for whatever it is, and they ask a bunch of questions, things that could be related. And there's always one question, like, well, is there any yeah, you have any stress? You feel any stress lately? It's like, oh, don't have to worry about that. No, no, I'm just I'm that I'm that guy that doesn't have any stress, so yeah, so we're all good there.

SPEAKER_01 8:47

Yeah, chose to make my living playing flat top acoustic guitar, you know what I mean? No stress in my life whatsoever. No.

SPEAKER_00 8:55

Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, don't don't don't worry about that, no problem. Yeah, yeah. Well, so what have you been um what have you been thinking about guitar-wise? Because I know you're you're you've been making some some content still and and you're working on your um you're still doing your your private lessons and and whatnot. But um, aside from the business end of things, do you f do you are you still kind of finding time to to practice or or what what are you thinking about in that world for your own personal playing, you know?

SPEAKER_01 9:24

Absolutely. So I have been since the injury happened, one thing that I'm worried about is that like um you know how like your middle finger and your ring finger are kind of like connected where if you move one, the other one kind of like tends to so like if I'm using my ring finger too heavy, the middle finger wants to go with it sometimes, which has caused some like twinges and stuff. So what I've been working on the last couple days is um mainly playing with these two guys, and I love just saying that, you know what I mean? Um so I've been giving myself a half hour of playing per day since the injury with these two fingers or one finger if I can make it happen, um, just to kind of recalibrate and see um what I can can make happen from like a bluegrass guitar standpoint. So I I've been doing this thing inside the guitar club. I I actually did this three days after I got the injury. I came up with like a 30-day practice challenge mainly for myself because the way that I structured it was week one is like rhythm skills, week two, we learn a tune and apply some of those rhythm skills, and then weeks three and four are like adding um some kind of more complex melodic uh devices to kind of flesh out the melody or make a variation. Um so I'm in week one right now and I'm figuring out like how do I play, like how do you play a G chord? You know what I mean? With like with no middle finger, you know what I mean? Like so I've been doing this one, this like so that's that's kind of my G chord. I've been able to get a C chord with with like like Yeah, okay So that one's like you know D chord, I'm not going full D chord because that's just like an awkward grip. So I've been doing the sus two on almost all of my right, you know? Totally, yeah, give it the middle finger to that major third there, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:27

And then uh I always think of that as the David Greer G, which he doesn't play. I don't he I don't know if I've seen him play that. For for people who are listening and not watching, it's thumb on the sixth string and then index is barring the second and first string. And I'm not sure if I've seen him play it like uh in a in an actual piece of music, but as he talks about something, he'll play something, and then for some reason that'll be the way that he'll play his G at the end there. I always just found it so funny, and I don't know why he does it, but um, but it's cool. Yeah, it's not that hard. Honestly, if you're gonna play that voicing, because it's the same thing, if you think about it, it's like the classic G shape for bluegrass. In some ways, it's not like it's harder to do, it's kind of a nice, comfortable thing, you know.

SPEAKER_01 12:16

Because if you think about like the natural, just like gripping, you know, like the thumb and index finger are like the main mechanism on the the hand for like that that gripping motion. So that's what you're you're almost kind of doing, that right? Um totally. I will say this something sounds like not as uh aggressive about it though. Because you know how you can play into that, you know, like that low string and get like that that kind of growl, that crash sound that Tony does. There's something I can't, I'm I guess it's maybe it's my thumb, you know, like it isn't like you can't do it enough. You know, like I can't really do that. So so that's kind of been been the first week. Is I'll sit down and just try and play the chords through a song if I can, you know.

SPEAKER_00 13:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:03

Um but where I've actually had like more success is melodically, because like you'd be surprised at like and I guarantee you the same thing would happen with you on the banjo if you were limited to one finger, you'd be like, you'd be able to make it through 60% of the stuff you play kind of like no problem, just with some slight modifications. The other 40%, you know, you kind of have to think about a little bit, but but the first thing I did was uh um I sat down and I was like, what tunes uh have like at least three notes uh per string on on like some of their phrases because that'll allow me to like slide, you know? Yeah, so yeah. So I I've been kind of experimenting with that, and and that kind of brings me, you know, you were asking, what am I practicing? And and I I think I had talked about this the other day with you, but like my copy of The Advancing Guitarist came to mind as soon as this happened. Um I I know Eli's into this because uh if you're if you've ever uh dipped your toe into the world of jazz guitar, this is kind of like one of the books that you know, what like Ted Green's Chord Chemistry, Mick Goodrich's uh advancing guitarist, you know, like those are these are like you know, the right, like top five books that every jazz guitar student needs.

SPEAKER_00 15:00

Totally.

SPEAKER_01 15:01

Um but in what page 11, so like pretty quick into the book, Mick uh introduces this concept. This is the second concept he introduces in the book, period. And it is playing up and down a single string, the science of the unitar, he calls it. Um so he he kind of breaks it into like there are groupings you can have in the left hand, you can have any combination of left-hand fingers, but the first one we start with is just one finger, one string. And I remembered this as soon as I was like sitting down and trying to play one finger guitar, I was like, wait, wasn't Mick Goodrick talking about that in the book, you know? Um and it was almost like, you know, those moments where something happens to you and then you like you see something else in the universe that just like validates your entire position. Um at the end of this introduction, he says, Why would you play up and down one string with only one finger? Because you'd learn things that can't be learned any other way. This type of approach is what I call quote unquote disadvantage exercises. By deliberately working within the confine of a particular limitation, i.e., only one finger, we can learn much. Some people might ask, why bother playing with only one finger when you've got four? You can't play much with one finger anyway. But the question is really, how much can you play with one finger and what could you learn? So I I think I read that and I was like, oh my god, like this is I could see this as a disadvantage right now. This is a disadvantage exercise that was kind of like forced upon me as opposed to one that I chose for myself, right? But but thinking about that, um I'm like, I've got two months to explore this one technique or the the two techniques, like if I'm just gonna maybe manipulate like index and pinky or something like that. Um that's an opportunity that I never would have just given myself otherwise.

SPEAKER_00 16:54

Yeah. You know, yeah, like how many times do you uh are there these things that in theory are good ideas to practice that we say, oh yeah, that's a great, that's great. I'm a little too busy for that right now. I've got I've got more important things to do than blah blah blah. You know, it's like not that what you're describing is like the only thing we all need to practice, but there's all these great things that in normal circumstances can feel like a little bit of a distraction or like, yeah, if I had all the time in the world, I'd do that, whatever it is. But some of them are kind of what you're describing. I bet you're gonna get so much out of it that that you might not have otherwise. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

Already kind of feeling that way a little bit, you know, because uh there was uh whiskey before breakfast I was messing around with, but then I was I was taking a look at like each day or every couple days, I'm trying to kind of do a new fiddle tune just to see like how can I take this thing that's normally eighth notes with all fingers moving and then kind of like rig it to to almost work um with with one finger. And Big Soyota's kind of nuts. You know, you know what I mean? Like that that motion is like one finger jumping back and forth. So like I'm I'm forced to kind of think from like the the like floating guitar, harp guitar kind of perspective. So it's like if my hand needs to go back here to get a note, I don't have a finger behind this one, so I need to go up to grab that note. So you know, so stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00 18:32

Yeah, which is just so instantly like stylized. You know, it's not, you know, uh our our mutual friend, um Matty Whittler, uh says this probably every time we talk, um, that uh style is based on limitation.

SPEAKER_02 18:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 18:50

Um and uh it's and it's so true, but it's it's interesting because you know, you think about a tune like that, uh, or or like the one the version of Whiskey before breakfast you played a little while ago, where it was like instantly it was like, oh that's an arrangement. Like just by necessity of how you can play that tune with one hand, it's actually like a really musical arrangement. Whereas, you know, to just say, like, okay, now I'm gonna pick out the melody of whatever it is, you know, which is fine, and it's the melody, and there's that could very well be your arrangement, but it's kind of like because I have access to every single note of the melody in that one position, it's gonna be just this is the sound of every note picked in the same place with the same tone, with the same, you know, whatever it is. And it's like uh it actually requires a lot more creative brain power to force yourself not to use all of your tools. Uh, but what a cool uh way to trick yourself into doing it if it's only if that's your only option is you have to come up with something creative. Whereas me and my lack of uh limitations, uh I'm I'm kind of my default is just gonna be the most basic version of that, right? Uh yeah. That's really cool. Yeah, that's awesome, man. I mean, yeah, instantly uh both versions of that were like, oh, cool. That could be the whole, you know, creative force behind the arrangement, is is just that one finger thing. And then, you know, if you want to make it easier for yourself later on, you can do a fingering that that maybe is a little more convenient, but just to just have that texture as a result of that is is pretty huge. That's really cool.

SPEAKER_01 20:29

Yeah, man. It's uh so I guess as you can see, like at least I I'm feeling pretty cool about how this journey has gone so far. You know what I mean? It's it's it's yielding results like this, like we're talking about. Um and I I have I I would probably need to work up a few more tunes before I could really drive this across the finish line, but I almost want to like record an EP or an album like while this is happening, just for the reason that you're talking about here. It's like this is the only time in my life where like this limitation is like really going to be forced upon me. So, like, what did I sound like and what did uh what what like results were yielded as a result of this this stylistic limitation that we're talking about? Um yeah, there's there's so much um it's really been forcing my my right hand has been kind of picking up the slack and like I feel like I'm cross-picking way more and sure and almost in like a Bill Monroe-esque kind of way, like playing a bunch of open strings that maybe don't even necessarily have any chord information in them, but like fills the space in a way that's not like offensive to the ear, you know? Yeah, yeah. Um so yeah, there's there's all sorts of stuff like that. Um another thing that I've kind of been doing each day just as like a uh uh a little exercise is is one of the ones that Mick um suggests in the book here where His this advancing guitars book, I didn't really say this earlier. It it's what the tagline is applying guitar concepts and techniques, you know, for for like guitar players that uh are somewhere in the middle of their journey, right? The the hardest hard to be where you're like, holy crap, what am I doing? You know, what do I need to do next? Um But there are all these cool little exercises that I think force you to do what we're talking about, force you to extract as much music out of a limited set of data as you possibly can before like moving on to the next thing. Um and he starts with one finger, one string, and he's like, play all your modes up and down that one string. What's you know, what's Dorian look like laid out in a in a linear way, you know what I mean? Yeah, and and can you make something happen inside of that that mode with just one finger and and one string? And he even talks about it, he's like, it forces you to slide, it forces you to leave space, you know, all of these things that um that you might not do otherwise.

SPEAKER_00 23:00

Totally, totally. That's so fascinating. I mean, I I remember always appreciating the the Unitar thing, um because uh you can get especially I don't know if if people are interested in the um like caged system for for position playing or or they kind of learn scale positions different places. I never really did exactly the caged thing, but I guess learning scale patterns and shapes in each position. It's basically the same thing. I just never thought to connect it to chord shapes at the time. But but if you're into that kind of thing, I always found that you know it's the same with jazz guitars, you can get it kind of in a position uh and stay there, which is which can be a good thing to practice as well. I mean, even playing through a complicated tune in one place can be really useful, um but it can be very limiting for the range of what you're playing, right? If you think about kind of a compelling improvisation, often plays with like the low and high range of your instrument, um, or at least having the option, right?

SPEAKER_01 23:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:59

And so I always felt like, you know, if I was gonna play, especially like whiskey before breakfast, you know, for for the sake of playing the melody, I do like the idea of playing in one place, you know. Is great and probably where I would want to put it uh if I was kicking off the tune or something like that. Um but then obviously so easy to get stuck in just that one place and have my improvisation or or whatever be just right there. But I always found that um not so much uh just learning the melody in all registers, which can be which is great too, but you know, that unitar thing, if I just think about like, okay, what's not even the whole melody, just the skeleton of that melody. You know, if I was gonna play instead of uh in one position, kind of thinking whatever it is, you know, but just even just the skeleton. That's essentially what the the melody does there, right? Exactly. Um and so i it's not so much just those notes that are important, like that's not my improvisation necessarily. Even though that's my little skeleton of whatever. Um but the point the the idea that I could at some point in the melody jump up higher and have a new place that I'm that I'm playing, right? So um uh let's say uh I play part of the melody here. Now it's now I'm thinking jazz world, whatever it is, but it's just like it's still playing the melody uh or or touching on the melody, uh when I play here, I don't really have anywhere to go uh too far out of that range, right? Uh where I can go is basically back down right there. But if if I land on that high note of the melody now, I have all this stuff in re where I'm where I'm somewhere uh further from the melody, range-wise, whatever it is, which is the same, you know, going in the opposite direction, whatever it is. So um, you know, you can you can think about it uh f outside of the melody, obviously, but just in t in terms of interpreting the melody, it just puts you in a new place that you know, then of course you want to have some kind of idea of, you know, and and and so then maybe you learn the melody in that position also. Um but just just thinking about it in those terms I find uh especially for the when I was playing um more guitar when I was younger, was was a really helpful way of getting out of my little box, you know, and then you're not shifting also from box to box, uh that can be a weird, a weird thing, also, you know.

SPEAKER_01 26:52

And there are always like yes, patterns, right, that that shift between the boxes, but rarely like melodic ideas that make you shift between the boxes. Do you know what I mean? Yes, exactly. Yeah, it's like I'm making this choice because of a physical relationship, not because my ear hears this really cool thing that I need to do there. Whereas, like, I don't I don't know about you, but after I started practicing this Unitar concept, I would find in solos that um I would actually break position playing because my ear was guiding my hand somewhere, so I just keep climbing up a string until I find that thing that I'm looking for. So it can almost be like maybe a a liberating kind of tool if you if you are a guitar player out there who's like, I'm really locked into my cage boxes or position playing or any of that kind of stuff. This this unitar thing might be just what the what the doctor ordered, you know?

SPEAKER_00 27:49

Yeah. Um it it can also um, you know, uh one of the benefits of of not playing bluegrass guitar often is that in many other contexts you're not really compelled to play a constant stream of eighth notes. Where I think there's a little bit of implication with flat picking that that that's kind of the sound, right? Which it kind of is, and it doesn't have to be, but um you got you can also you can tell when somebody's coming to bluegrass with a lot of musical information but not the idiomatic understanding, and they play with a lot of space, and it might sound nice, but it uh you're like dating bluegrass. You know, so so I think you know, especially if I was gonna try to improvise over a um, you know, uh a 251 or something. If I was in a in the jazz world, whatever, you know, okay, let's stay in in D, uh E minor to A to D. There is obviously there's all kinds of eighth notey stuff you can do, whatever, but but you're not expected to necessarily do that. You go or another one. There's all these things you can play that are like uh plenty of space, right? Um instead of uh Yes. And so, you know, it's like, okay, I I I do want to have some ability to make that choice and have space in bluegrass also. And I feel like the Unitar thing really helps with that because it it actually kind of stops you from being in your position where you can just run lines a little bit. Um, then you have to be a little bit like find a way to make that space. And it sounds like what you're describing, the cross-picking stuff is such a good way to do that, to be like, you know, and kind of thinking like a banjo player that you know uh doesn't have to be, you know. Just constantly running whatever, which which you know I could stand to work on doing anyway, but but um to me, I'm already I'm already in on that one.

SPEAKER_01 30:08

You can way more than you can.

SPEAKER_00 30:10

Exactly, yeah. And it's like uh, and just doing that on one two on one string.

SPEAKER_01 30:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:22

Like it sounds like the tune, great and everything, but then I think where I uh have this like intellectual understanding is that I can do that, and then I think what I'd like to maybe you can you can demonstrate a little bit more of it too. Um the idea of like uh uh some sort of cross pick.

SPEAKER_01 30:42

Oh yes. Yeah, what we need then. Dude, we gotta get that diminished in there. Come on, man. Yeah, you know, like we spent a lot of money on that cord.

SPEAKER_00 30:56

Um exactly.

SPEAKER_01 30:58

Yeah, but no, I'm I'm so with you. And as I've gotten access to like my ring sometimes and my pinky back, what you're talking about on that specific one has been like a um because this is actually the like almost like the next layer that Mick talks about in the book.

SPEAKER_00 31:12

Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 31:13

It's very logical. He's like one finger, one string, then one string, multiple fingers, stay with that for a while, do your thing. Then the next thing is two string groupings. And like, what can I do with with two strings now? Like, okay, I've got one finger that can bounce back and forth between them. I've got double stops now. That's something he he actively brings up. And he doesn't even stick with like diatonic or thirds double stops, you know. He's putting like seconds on top of one another and stuff like that, you know. So, like, you know, like you know, like that kind of stuff. Um so I I think uh you know, something like the uh and I I I've been syncopating that one because I actually did do this the other day. Uh let me see if I can pull it off. You know, like that kind of run. Um I was also doing like a uh um cool. So like a floaty, like D, E, open E, and then F sharp slide to G. And then an A.

SPEAKER_00 32:25

Yeah, sweet.

SPEAKER_01 32:28

You know, like that, so that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 32:31

Um you mean you really can get a lot with a slave.

SPEAKER_01 32:40

Those so the Mick book got me back onto the idea about playing consecutive seconds on strings as opposed to because we're locked into usually like thirds double stops, right? But just like you're doing there, like a play in a G and an A on consecutive strings, or that I love that one for that next phrase, right?

SPEAKER_00 32:59

Totally.

SPEAKER_01 33:05

Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:09

Cool.

SPEAKER_01 33:14

That kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 33:15

Well, and what a cool thing too, like, okay, that's a great way to interpret the melody, and then what a cool tool that you could then use in improvisation that you again might not have come across the same way that, like, just uh which I think I I definitely saw uh Greer do that at one point. Um, there's a great video of um Matt Flinner, David Greer, and Todd Phillips at the music emporium um uh playing recently. They played Blackberry Blossom, and there's some moment where Greer does that. Uh so it's got that minor second. But just think how many times you're playing where you kind of have access to that.

SPEAKER_01 33:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:01

That's so cool, dude. Something I would not have done really otherwise or practice, but now you can kind of practice it, you know. Yeah. Like all the all the places where you would just kind of is there any way I could just Yeah. You know, like you can kind of you could practice the whole scale. You could take the Unitar thing and then apply it to a position, or I don't know. Yeah, yeah, that's that's very cool, man.

SPEAKER_01 34:34

Yeah. It's cool because those are almost like little we we play so many consecutive seconds. Or like, you know, in in a in a scale run, right? Like da, where they're separated, but like this is one of those things that could add some more like legato quality or whatever, right? You know, that kind of floaty. Yeah. I was even thinking about that for the uh exactly uh Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. The uh you know that one.

SPEAKER_00 35:08

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 35:16

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And then you know, you do stuff like that, right? Because like I've been I I've been uh doing rockin' sixths a lot the last couple days just because like that index pinky spread that I've got here, right? So there's just all this dumb stuff that like we're talking about here. It's not dumb stuff, it's just like the non-standard vocabulary or or like stuff that kind of like you said a while ago, we could have stopped to kind of like focus on this, but because I didn't have time or because it wasn't most useful to the you know the set of music that I had to learn, like then I'm I'm just kind of blowing over it. But now we've got the time and we can, you know, make people listen to us talk for an hour about playing diatonic seconds on consecutive streams.

SPEAKER_00 36:08

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Aren't you glad you subscribe to this podcast? But it's cool. I mean, yeah, God, that's that's cool too. Just like um you could just the voice leading of uh yeah, just to do the whole whole tune that way, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:32

Yeah, the the B part, uh that last phrase works really nicely that way. You know, and then you can kinda get into wherever you want to.

SPEAKER_00 36:46

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 36:47

You know, like however you want to kind of do that. So there's there's all sort of neat stuff like that. And like you said, it it leads you away from that constant eighth note sound, but that's like in a way, that's that's that could be like that refreshing thing that you need in the city.

SPEAKER_00 37:03

Yeah, especially, especially if you kind of have the ability to do that. Uh maybe, maybe that's still the base of what we're doing, is is not super outside the the flat picking norm, but to but to have that breath of fresh air and then return to it is kind of a nice idea, I think. Yeah. Um you know, uh, I think we all have uh plenty of of experience hearing just the endless, you know. Uh uh we're just gonna talk about stuff David Greer said the whole podcast. But I can't remember what he calls it like the like machine gun or oh typewriter's laying. Typewriter, that's what it is, yeah. Typewriter's layer.

SPEAKER_01 37:38

Typewriter, that that that's you know that's a dated reference. Nobody, you know, Jen Alpha doesn't know what a typewriter sounds like, you know.

SPEAKER_00 37:46

Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they don't teach kids cursive in school anymore either. So oh man. Let's yeah. I don't mean to get political. Anyway, um I was thinking about one other thing you could try. Um if if you'll all have will have patience with me, um uh with the one finger thing. Um I don't know if you've have you you haven't played any claw hammer banjo, have you?

SPEAKER_01 38:16

Not really to like I've I learned the bum diddy pattern in my right hand, and that was about it, you know what I mean, and I'm terrible at it.

SPEAKER_00 38:23

This will be this will be even better for you because you don't have to learn the right hand, you'll do guitar right hand, but but if you if you check out like some open tuning stuff, um you know, like let me think real quick what I could do. If I did. I'll explain this in one second, what are we doing like double C two? So this is double double C, yeah, and you could do the other, so so I haven't touched the fifth and sixth strings yet. And I also don't know how this is gonna go because I haven't tried this, but I just have a hunch. So my top four strings now, from first string to fourth string, is D, C, G, and then C. And without the open fifth string, which would be G, it's basically what you would tune. That's double C for a banjo, right? And most of these tunes that we play uh in this tuning uh for claw hammer banjo, you can do a lot of them with just one finger. Oh yeah. Then you might have to do a chord there that you could you could do with your with your two outer fingers. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 39:40

I've got my index and my finger.

SPEAKER_00 39:53

I'm not sticking to the one finger thing right now. I love that, dude. So, uh, what'd be a good you should check out actually? Uh I don't know if this'll work because um with the with the picking, but uh do like uh two called Walking in the Parlor. So anyway, yeah, it's like a I love that, dude. And you could do so much more with the right hand than I'm kind of able to do at the moment, but but it's a great that's a great sound. Um and you could really do all of that with with just literally one finger, certainly. Yeah, there you go, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:05

Uh yeah, dude, I'm gonna relearn that after we get up the couple.

SPEAKER_00 41:10

Uh another good one would be like um uh ducks on the mill pond.

SPEAKER_01 41:38

I think we just inspired the double C uh the uh oh here we go, claw guitar.

SPEAKER_00 41:44

Maybe that's I was gonna try to claw hammer it, but that didn't that wasn't gonna sound very good.

SPEAKER_01 41:47

Um it seems like if I went because I've got my top four in the A.

SPEAKER_00 41:52

I could go down to G. Yeah. If you really want to go crazy, you go down to C on the sixth string.

SPEAKER_01 42:01

Ooh, yeah, dude. I think this is like I could almost do whiskey before breakfast better out of that whole thing.

SPEAKER_00 42:11

Oh yeah, dude, this is the whole thing about claw hammer banjo and open tunings, it's it's easier than everything else. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:35

Yeah, that's uh yeah, yeah. I think it's my double C era. Uh I'll say this. Do you notice this? Like now we're like we're way getting into the weeds. We've lost the guitar players at this point. Yes. But it's like the four chord is so hard to treat in double C tuning for me because you have to jam your all the way up to the fifth fret there.

SPEAKER_00 43:04

So totally, you know. Yeah. Yeah, this yeah, that it makes for a nice chord, but it's uh a little weird to grab it. You can do that one. Yeah, I find it, yeah. I don't know, it's it's definitely um I'm trying to think if there's that's probably the best tuning you could do for that kind of thing. There's there's some other ones that are kind of interesting, um, but that's the most like open, nice sounding one, you know. The way kind of how Adam Hurt plays it, but you could yeah, especially if you had any decent right hand technique. then one could certainly get some good mileage out of that. Um that's that's worth trying for sure. Yeah. Um oh and you know like Angeline the bacon I mean this is where you you get into the dulcimer you know sorry for for fake dulcimer but but uh yeah there's there's options for sure. Super cool sounds that once again like we would never have arrived at any of this if it wasn't you know like there's some limitation placed on it you know I love it you know um I think uh C Tunes I was thinking uh farewell try-on might be one that I I try later today big time gets weird yeah maybe even go down the octave right you know yeah exactly yeah yeah yeah yes yeah dude that's all right that's yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah the one I like too um which I was trying to figure out there's a a great tune called Coleman's March and uh Kenny Smith has a really great way of playing it I think drop D standard tuning but just drop D and uh which which I think I'll I'll I think I'm gonna learn that because I it doesn't it's so unintuitive to me to to play what he's playing where I'm like uh I know the tune out of this double C tuning and it's like it's super easy that way. So I should I should learn the way Kenny does it in in drop D just to to learn how to play guitar. But um but it works really it works really great uh in this tuning if I try to claw hammer I think I can yeah I love you can you know like it it lays easier there than than the the uh drop D version does but uh but there's something that one I I do play in drop D but I find myself like climbing up and down the D the the middle D string you know like not the low one and just like you know doing the melody that way.

SPEAKER_01 47:16

So it's like you can't get that nice singing high version like you were just playing there. That's cool man. Dude I'm like I'm like I need to sign off of this uh call right now so I can go practice.

SPEAKER_00 47:28

Podcast is over okay I'm gonna okay I'll I'll do I'm gonna pick a tune let's each maybe let's each pick a tune uh to arrange this way and maybe maybe in the next episode or at some point at some point we'll come back and see what we've what we've accomplished I don't know what the timeline will be it doesn't matter but anyway maybe I'll stick with that farewell try-on that one's for some reason I've got the the spooky tones of Daryl anger in the back of my mind right now yeah yeah yeah yeah you know I love how Daryl and Joe and all those guys play that one so maybe that's my my my tune there. What was that first one that you suggested the um it was a real simple tune I can look back at the call but oh walking in the parlor yeah walking in the parlor that was a real nice one too I might take a look at both of those keeps it real simple you don't have to necessarily cross pick too much of it just that's another Dulcimer There's a bunch of stuff that uh is easier claw hammer uh to do the exact you know the yeah it it it doesn't actually require you to like cross strings because that's not how it works in claw hammer. Yeah you'd probably be getting like a a fifth string on some of those there's a fifth string where you do the alternate string pull-off there's the alternate string pill-off where you're doing a pull-off without you know if I'm gonna go and actually play the note I love it which actually it would would work great in this context easier technically a little easier than articulating each one and you could even hammer straight back on exactly yeah that's such a weird feeling dude to pick a note and then pick the next one with your left hand totally wow yeah so if if for people who aren't familiar in in clawhammer banjo and and actually David Greer does a little bit of this uh kind of thing um uh it's called an alternate string pull-off and it's basically just a pull-off without playing on the note beforehand so what you're hearing when I do that is just my left hand articulating it so it's a way that in clawhammer because you're not doing up and down strokes and and whatever it's the way that you play that offbeat note because it happens you know if I go that second note there is on the offbeat and I don't have a way to do that in clawhammer world but it actually uh it's a nice texture change if even for guitar it could be because if you're going to articulate each of those notes you're kind of getting the pick sound on each note but if I it's kind of it gives you more of that harp-like quality that's nice man yeah um David Greer definitely does some of that and then I know um uh great guitar player Alex Rubens does a little bit of it and he plays some claw hammer banjo too so I he definitely has has some of the knowledge from that but I but he's kind of gone on a deep dive on a lot of Greer stuff that there are times when when he's kind of doing that or he's sliding into a note you know you might do like uh or you hammer on and land on a you know yes that's the Greer technique that I've never been able to master that I've kind of really tried you know um yeah Ruben's the guy to talk to for all that stuff man you know yeah yeah we'll we'll get him on the podcast and he'll reveal all of David Greer's secrets um he won't I he probably won't mind if I say this but I I learned this um this tune Sometime next summer uh great David Greer tune that's on the album Fly on the Wall I think uh which is a cool album because it's him mostly playing rhythm with a bunch of old time stuff um and uh it's so great but there's this solo guitar tune Sometime next summer and I was working on it and I bought this record and um wanted to check out the rest of it and I bought it off David's site and then he sent me an email and said hey man uh thanks for getting the record hey you should check out this tune sometime next summer I was like oh actually that's the one I've been checking out um and I had you know I was like you know I've been working on it it's hard to figure out if I should do open hand closed hand whatever it was and uh he was he was very kind and and said the effect of like do whatever works for you and you can do you can do both you know we won't go back into the open closed hand debate but anyway it was uh it was cool it was it kind of tracked with with his style which is very unique and and kind of whatever's gonna get the music out in the right way and he was he was uh it was kind of helpful to say like you can you can switch in the middle of a song if you want to you know it's up to you. That's cool man. Um that was very that was very nice but uh but yeah he's got all kinds of techniques like that some of which you know Clarence did a little bit of that stuff but but he talks about pedal steel players and and I mean that record is uh full of old time tunes he's not there's and there's a ton of claw hammer banjo on it if you listen to that tune sometime next summer it's kind of a coincidence uh you know I'm really making a connection that doesn't it truly exist but on that tune he does ton tons of stuff that all uh claw hammer banjo players do um just fingering wise or or rhythmically or something like that. So it's it's um yeah I don't know it's fascinating.

SPEAKER_01 52:55

I dude and I I just have to like zoom out for a second because I feel like this is the thing that I noticed about Greer's playing that really fired me up. I I would put myself in the same camp as like Alex where like he was the guy that I really studied intensely to kind of um emulate his technique and his sound. I just found that it was the fullest most like kind of diverse flat picking sound out there and the stuff you're talking about I think is the reason. It's not um you'll hear Greer talk about like oh I heard Dan Crairy do this thing or I heard Clarence do this thing. But more often than not you hear him say more stuff like well the melody goes like this or the fiddle would do this or the banjo would do this. It's like his ears aren't only locked in on what the guitar player is doing. He's perceiving the whole musical scenario and like what techniques and tools and sounds can I draw from this whole wall of sound that's around me right now as opposed to like what is the guitar thing that I'm supposed to be doing right now. You know and I just kind of heard you kind of like dancing around that thing that I've like noticed in his playing so many times before. And I think for anyone out there who appreciates that style of guitar playing, you know, and and I would include players like Alex in there, you know there they're you know Ben Garnett who we've talked about before like you know that incorporate these really cool uh subtle harmonic and and and like cross picking techniques and stuff like that. I think um if you're seeking out the music you're gonna find something way better than if you're seeking out the hand position or the the the scale position or the you know the the shift or whatever you're looking for you know like that's not what Greer told you. Like like he said his whole deal was like do whatever you need to make it happen. You know yeah totally yeah like not like tilt your hand 10 degrees backward and you know like you know no.

SPEAKER_00 54:55

Totally totally yeah and and you you kind of yeah going beyond like what should I be playing? Like how does how should I play this tune? What tunes should I learn? How should I hold a pick? Like all those things you kind of have to figure out for yourself which in my experience also includes going to resources that say here's how you do this. This is the own this is the the whatever it's fine to go to those sources but you still have to be in charge and and say okay from this perspective this is the correct way I'm gonna see how I like it. I'm gonna try it. And then you have to go somewhere else that says actually this is the way and it's not you know it's easy to get paralyzed in that and say um uh well these two opposing forces of these two great guitar resources say the opposite thing what am I supposed to do? It's like well you're in charge you have to choose you have to pick you know you have to see does this suit the music that I want to play? Is there room for both of these things?

SPEAKER_01 55:54

And is there a deeper reason that that player might be touting that one thing you know what I mean? Because it's like that might be the quote right way for them to get the sound out that they want but to you it can just be another tool in your bag. This is the like I guess I you said that and it fired me up because I used to get into this trap all the time. It's like oh I've been doing the wrong thing I need to do this thing.

SPEAKER_00 56:16

And it's like well it's more of like a yes and type of situation right you know yeah totally yeah the you know the um you're you know you're saying the you know rotate your angle 10 degrees whatever the you know whatever the little minutia is like it's not to say you don't go down that road I we do that all the time you know like trying to figure this stuff out especially I am right now trying to like figure out how I want to be playing the guitar um but it's not prescriptive it's not to say uh because until you rotate your wrist the number correct number of degrees you're not playing guitar it's uh let's just see if this works better for me or let's see if I can turn this into a muscle memory or a habit or whatever it is. And then it doesn't have to feel like um uh you're getting permission to to have fun now that you've done your homework and you've gotten all your you've learned all the right tunes and your technique is perfect now you can have fun as long as you don't you know forget all the all the rules and uh any any player that we listen to kind of already does that thing right there's not a single person we can look at who's like um hasn't made some personal choice as to how they want to handle something you know that that's different from everyone else. You know yeah I don't know I'm I'm I'm excited now about this uh this open tuning thing especially because it's gonna force me to um force me to make more creative choices because I you know I was I was talking about playing these fiddle tunes and and just playing the single notes uh and kind of getting trapped in that and I was like that's totally where I'm at right now is like uh just playing these endless um eighth note line things that that feel kind of uninspired and it's like okay well I obviously can't do that in the open tuning and uh this big weakness of like oh man what a what about a simple melody that I can kind of fill in with this cross picking stuff. It's like well that if that doesn't feel comfortable it's like okay this will be a good way to force that to to kind of come to the top a little bit you know if I can. So I'm definitely looking forward to that. I I love that man I think uh thanks for joining me on this journey of stylistic limitation man yes for for the next eight weeks I too will only play with one finger we're gonna start a whole new movement man you know yeah yeah exactly yep yep we can have we can have our own one finger uh guitar flat picking contest yeah third week in September every year you know rain or shine yeah don't go to that other flat pick contest no no no no no they're cheating they're using their whole hand yeah yeah come on yeah you've seen that before who hasn't seen a guitar player use all of his fingers you know exactly yeah exactly that's great dude oh man all right well this seems natural as any uh uh a point to let you know that um we appreciate you listening to this podcast it seems like people now now that we've actually released a couple episodes it seems like people are actually listening to it and that's kind of nice um feel free to uh to leave comments it'd be easy for you to find those on well you can you can leave comments and questions on any of the social media sides of all these things but um we'll leave links to all the classic stuff where you can find Hayes and I can I I'm I'm gonna now that you've said it a couple times is it it's Hayes Griffin no it's Hayes Griffin guitar dot club almost is it haze Griffin dot haze griffin dot club all right folks it's it's it's uh it's funny man because like they came out with those new top level domains a couple years back and it's you know screwing everyone dot club what is that all about yeah yeah it's set to you apart yeah exactly it's something you can join it you know you can be a part of a community yeah I joke that is what it is and and right now we do have a 30-day challenge going on that I'm gearing toward learning how to play the guitar with one finger but if you want to come in and kind of reset your practice uh head to hazegriffin.club and join us for the next month.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:27

Um the challenge will be open for for six months so you can kind of do it whenever you want but it's a 30 day challenge to kind of kickstart your practice and hopefully this conversation has been inspiring for you to do so.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:41

Yes yes yes yes to make sure that you're using all your fingers and tuning normally and not doing anything that we're doing. No that's what I need to do. Um and uh as always you can find me Eli Gilbert guitar on YouTube um and uh and follow along as I uh try to figure out how to play bluegrass guitar. Uh yeah so folks that's gonna do it for now thanks for for checking out the Flat Picking podcast subscribe leave comments uh rate us five stars I guess is that something that's that's what people say on podcasts so that must be that must be what we're supposed to do. But uh but that'll do it for now. So see you folks.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:22

Take it easy gang