SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hey there folks, quick note before we get into the podcast. Uh, I know that by now, after one episode, you've grown accustomed to a certain level of audio and video quality. Uh, but due to a uh let's call it technical error on my part, the video for this episode and this episode alone is gonna look a little different. Basically, I deleted my video file from this podcast, so we have to use the uh zoom recording itself. The audio still sounds great. The video looks like a zoom recording on my end, and on Hayes' end looks like his unprocessed video feed because he uses his camera as a webcam. Is this interesting to you? No. The point is the video looks a little strange for this episode and this episode alone. I hope you can forgive us. Uh, thanks for checking out the podcast. Feel free to subscribe, check it out on podcast apps if you want to listen and uh yeah, enjoy the podcast. Hey, as I understand the IBM A International Bluegrass Music Association Award nominations are out. That's something I'm bringing up to you for the first time now that we did not talk about 30 seconds ago before we started recording. This is totally spontaneous, folks. Who uh who was nominated this year? Actually, I I looked at some of the nominations because I think um uh some re a record that I played on uh that was from a couple years ago that was still eligible, had a couple things in a second round of nominations. So it was kind of like, uh-oh, am I gonna have to go to IBM A and go to the award show for this thing that am I gonna have to buy that new suit, you know?

SPEAKER_00 1:36

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:37

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which, you know, it's like uh it would be great for for things to get nominated. I suppose that's nice too, but I also kind of like staying home. But then, so uh we'll all have mixed feelings to know that I won't be going to Chattanooga this year for that particular reason, if at all. But I didn't take a look at any of the other nominations. Do you have the uh I do nominations in front of you? Who has been nominated for Guitar Player of the Year?

SPEAKER_00 2:01

So Guitar Player of the Year nominees for 2026 would be Trey Hensley, Billy Strings, Brian Sutton, Cody Kilby, and Molly Tuttle. Surprising no one. So it's like I think what they did was just like who are the like top five acoustic guitar players on the scene right now off the top of our heads, and we're just gonna put them on a list, right? Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 2:31

Yeah. Which, you know, uh one of the classic things, you know, if you're in, depending on who's listening to this, if you are a musician who does any recording and touring, uh, then you've probably had these conversations with people. Or if you're not, then now you know that these conversations happen every single year about who is and who isn't nominated and who should be and whatever the conversation is. And and you know, like anything, it can get sort of um people can have a lot of opinions for a lot of different reasons, right? So so Hayes and I are kind of on that side of the discussion uh often is kind of like what does the what do the non, you know, the non-audience people think about it, which then I forget sometimes that like this is really about, you know, the the main group of people voting on this is listeners, right? But uh one thing that's kind of fascinating about that list is I hear that list and I say Sandcast of characters is always and because it's like yeah, they're recording every year and making really great stuff, it's like, yeah, understandably, you know, no qualms there. But what I will say is I take it for granted now, for instance, is Billy Strings and Molly Tuttle. It it was a there was a time a couple of years ago where it was like, oh, cool, a new person has entered the the list of of of nominated people, Billy Strings and then Molly Tuttle. And so I think the fact that I take for granted that, oh yeah, Billy Strings and Molly Molly Tellon, look, that didn't used to be the case that they were on the list. So I will say, even though that sounds like a list of the most likely suspects, uh, that actually isn't wasn't the case only a couple of years ago. So we're we're still kind of in a new world of getting recognition for some of these people, uh, even if Brian Sutton has been on the list since you know the beginning of time. But but uh, you know, it it is changing.

SPEAKER_00 4:16

Absolutely. And and like you said, credit has to be given to the fact that these people are still active on the scene. It's not like they just right, like we're we're thinking about Sutton's playing on the Kentucky Thunder years and like nominating him based upon that. Like Brian's creating amazing music to this day. Um, and the thing that I like and just want to like explicitly point out is that the list is like multi-generational, which is another way to kind of phrase what you said about like new people entering the scene. So it's cool to see like millennials and Gen Xers kind of like mixed and you know what I mean. Um whereas it unlike a lot of like awards shows or something like that, or awards categories, it's not just of like a particular like phrase, uh what I want to say, archetype for for like what makes uh a good guitar player. Like the fact that Molly Tuttle is on that list is huge, I think, you know?

SPEAKER_02 5:10

Totally. And you know, I think it also speaks to you know, when you think about when you think about what all these different players are playing, yes, like they play bluegrass guitar, but but kind of hearkening back to our discussion in the last episode about what flat picking is, is it the guitar category for IB Mate ends up often being the most eclectic uh category because if you think about it, none of those guitar players really do the same thing. Their bands don't sound the same, they don't really all have the same language, they don't all have the same uh, you know, there are commonalities, obviously, but you know, Trey Hensley is spending a ton of time playing stuff that is not just straight down the middle bluegrass. I mean, really, none of them are. Billy Strings is probably the one spending the most time actually playing straight ahead bluegrass the most, you know, which sometimes surprises people that they don't realize how much more bluegrass he plays than a lot of bluegrass musicians. But uh yeah, I think it's um it's it's kind of interesting. Like we were talking about again in the last episode, there's a there's a ton of stuff that is uh considered flat picking or bluegrass guitar because there is no standard. There's no one thing that they're supposed to do. And mandolin, certainly there's there's a bunch of different stuff you could do, but there is kind of a standard Monroe style. There's like the that foundation of that's how you take a solo or improvise, and then you branch off from that banjo, you break out from from Earl Scruggs and guitar. Again, there isn't that one standard thing. So you do end up with players that do all kinds of stuff. Molly, for instance, has spent so much time playing bluegrass, but lately uh her band is not so much of a bluegrass band anymore, but she's still flat picking in that band, you know, the band that she's you know touring with now. There's nothing about that that isn't flatpicking. It's not um it's not the the type of bluegrass band that Golden Highway was, but it's still flat-picking at that level of being recognized, you know, reasonably within bluegrass.

SPEAKER_00 7:11

100%. Um, yeah, I I think uh talking about Molly's stylistic differences, like to bat it back to Trey, I really enjoy the fact like if you see any given video of him on the internet could be a telecaster video, uh him playing with like Tommy Emmanuel on some you know crazy jazz. You know what I mean? So like all of that shows up in his his playing and his latest record. Have you listened to Can't Outrun the Blues? Have you checked out that?

SPEAKER_02 7:41

I've I've only heard a couple tracks. Um pretty amazing buttons.

SPEAKER_00 7:45

Yeah, because it it's it's kind of like you know, there's obviously like hard driving like bluegrass stuff, which he's known for, like high energy, lots of you know, fast 16th note runs and stuff like that. But it it also kind of dips over into like almost like pop country, you know what I mean? He's he's like an amazing singer and he does a lot of stuff um I think in his flat picking to support that in a really cool way, you know, that that you don't hear so often. Almost like a modern Tony Rice, but doing it his own way, you know what I mean? Like great singer and amazing flat picker, and like those two things combined is really special.

SPEAKER_02 8:21

Yeah, yeah. That's interesting too, that you know, kind of uh everyone on that list, um they one of the common things is a lot of what they do, the music is bigger than their kind of uh than their instrument, right? I mean, they're known for their instrument, and that's kind of that's a huge part of what they, you know, a lot of people that that do any teaching or you know, whatever. It's like, yeah, they they spend a lot of time in the bluegrass world, but but their own musical output often is bigger than uh here's my album of if that's a display of guitar technique, basically. You know what I mean? Like it it may display that as it does with Trey, obviously. Uh, you know, there's there's plenty of that. But but uh what it but what's interesting is I think everyone on that list probably sees themselves as more than a guitar player uh in in their their you know musical output generally speaking, right? They're not kind of thinking, like, here's my guitar record necessarily. That said, you know, Brian is just about to put out like this uh guitar duets record, you know. So so there's some of that, but like most of the stuff Brian does is bigger than just guitar records, you know. Um the same is true with you know, like I said, with Molly and like uh you know what Billy's doing is like so much of it is is uh you know, is is obviously communicating his love of like Doc Watson and and Norman Blake to the world. But like, you know, you go to those concerts, it's bigger than uh it's bigger than the guitar, certainly. So it's kind of fascinating to see how that's handled in terms of recognition, you know, uh to say nothing of anyone's opinions about the idea of of awards or or whatever. But it's you know just the general idea of kind of recognizing people for what they do. It'd see like, you know, it's it's not a list of people that say, like, well, these are the people who could play um wheelhaw the fastest, you know. Some of them can, but that's not what this list is. You know, that's that's kind of interesting that they they all do pretty different things.

SPEAKER_00 10:22

Absolutely. Um the talk about different things too. Uh I had the chance at Blue Ridge Guitar Camp to sit next to Cody Kilby for a couple days this you know, this year. And I didn't realize, you know, I he was one of the first flat pickers that I ever saw live when I was a kid. You know, I think he might have been the second or third. My dad took me to a Kentucky Thunder show, and you know, like that's that's why I have no hair. It's it just like, you know, blew it all off in that one that one show. Um, but I didn't realize how versatile his technique is, honestly, like because he doesn't just flat pick, and this is something to talk about too, right? Like, because Clarence uh was a was a hybrid picker, especially on acoustic guitar, you know, more so on Telecaster. But Cody was talking the whole uh class about how he has a special like nail salon that he goes to where they know they're like he comes in for two nails, you know what I mean? His middle finger and his ring finger, and they do that like plastic coating. Um, and he was demonstrating some of the licks that he does with Travelin McCurry's, and a lot of folks were like, Oh my gosh, I've been trying to do that lick for two years, but I didn't realize that you needed three fingers to do it, you know. Um, so I think it's cool that, you know, because this is obviously the flat picking podcast, but this award is guitar player of the year, right? Like, not flat picking guitar player of the year. Yeah. So so like totally it to me, it's cool to see folks like incorporating those different techniques into bluegrass. Cause like we even touched on it yesterday, the first generation of bluegrass guitar players. If we want to talk, say it's like what Earl Scruggs and Don Reno and George Shuffler, you know what I mean? Like Earl Scruggs was finger picking that thing, so that's like a sound, you know. Um so I don't know, it's kind of cool to see this like weird stylistic meld happen five generations later, because it's like Brent Mason was probably an influence on that decision. Um Cody said that Ricky was was the first one that showed him that he did his nails that way to get some of those like chicken picking things, you know. Sure. Um, so I don't know. It's uh like just to relate that back to kind of like we're talking about the stylistic diversity of the players that are on this list, you know. Like Cody, I think occupies a really special space. He brought up Michael Hedges in his class, you know, as an influence, you know, like the the great bluegrass guitar player Michael Hedges, you know.

SPEAKER_02 12:52

Yes, yes, yes. Uh famously not a flat picker. Uh I don't recall him ever using a a plectrum of that of that stuff.

SPEAKER_00 13:04

Yeah, I mean he did slap his guitar a lot.

SPEAKER_02 13:06

Yes, he did, yeah, yeah, yeah, which is a classic bluegrass technique. Um it's so interesting. It reminds me, I mean, it reminds me when you hear a if you hear stories from all of the great musicians in bluegrass, really any genre, but it but it's you know relevant to this in bluegrass, especially here by, you know, you were saying Trey spent so much time playing uh Telecaster and he's got country records and he's played on all that kind of stuff. Um you know, like Billy Strings uh has all this like metal stuff in his background, and like, you know, there's there's so much of that. Brian Sutton is a really great example of, you know, he grew up in North Carolina in like old time and bluegrass and ended up studying a lot of different things and getting into a lot of different types of music. And if you listen to him talk about how he kind of became known as like the bluegrass guy, it was, I think it was kind of when he was joining Ricky's band. But at the time, he wasn't really playing that much bluegrass. I mean, he had his whole life up until that point, but he was just playing a lot of different music, playing session stuff. And I think at a certain point he decided, okay, I'm gonna kind of focus in on this, or or that's an avenue that he decided to to focus on more. But you start to realize as you look at all these players, that very few of them ever said from the age of five, I'm gonna play bluegrass guitar and that's all I'm gonna do forever, and I'm gonna be that person. There's almost no one that does that. Sometimes, sure, but almost nobody does that. And and so when you say, like, wow, how do you have all these different influences? It's all the time that these people spend doing other things, right?

SPEAKER_00 14:41

Uh I I like that explanation for the the kind of phenomenon we're describing. You know, Cody told me a personal story about how when he got the job with Skags, he he was like, I was able to flat pick these things because I was doing contests and stuff like that. But he was like, I I think uh I was playing more banjo at the time. So I had Ricky pull me aside after the audition and was like, let's let's work out your rhythm. Let's talk about your rhythm guitar playing. You know? So that's so fascinating. Yeah, but I think to your point, you know, it's like because guitar players maybe are are more able to occupy other musical spaces, like the skill set is never like fully locked in on one until that becomes like your your job or something, maybe, you know.

SPEAKER_02 15:25

Yeah, sure, sure. Yeah, yeah. Like that that's kind of what Brian described. The same thing was maybe this is the effect that playing in Ricky's band has on people is if you want to stay in the band, you really have to focus on you really have to like buckle down on bluegrass to to keep up with that band. Maybe that's the the catalyst. But it's something that makes me think about because I've had times studying different instruments when I've thought I don't have time to work on anything else. I have to be so focused on this one thing that I think is my kind of like musical identity. And anytime I'm doing something else is kind of taking away from the thing I'm supposed to be doing. And if I take a break and play this other instrument or this other music, I'm gonna lose all this progress I made here. And you know, it'll all be for nothing. You know, like you can really spiral, you know, it's been a while since I've kind of really been in that mindset, but there's there's always a little twinge if I'm thinking about how do I divide my time. And it's really only the last couple of years that I've started to experience um how how fruitful it is to pick up new things and take time off from one thing, focus in a new area, then you can come kind of come back. I'm sure that if I wanted to spend eight hours a day doing one thing, there would be whatever the obvious benefits of of that kind of grinding are, sure. But I can say now from experience the last five or six years playing some bluegrass banjo, playing some claw hammer banjo, and now playing, you know, bluegrass guitar, I'm kind of always busy doing something and I'm more knowledgeable about the other areas of of the music that I play that I wasn't paying as much attention to. I'm I've met so many more people. You know, it's like there's so many things that I was kind of missing when I was just bluegrass banjo all the time that I've gained by letting go bluegrass banjo a little bit, you know, uh, and then you find that you're not really l losing anything compared to the how much you gain, right? And I and I look to the players like like everyone on this list basically as kind of inspiration because that's what they've been doing their whole lives. And and whether it was ever a you know uh existential conundrum for them or not, that's how they kind of behaved was following the the thing they found exciting or or whatever was a good job at the time or or whatever that is. I think I think that can be really, you know, kind of a a guiding, you know, uh uh kind of a guideline for for how to have a well-rounded musical life, right?

SPEAKER_00 17:53

Absolutely. Uh I mean, I think as you were talking there, like I I was just like recounting my own personal journey with this, and I think that like there was a period in time, and we've mentioned this like in the podcast the last episode, that like it's kind of a we we are like an insular community. This is like a tight niche thing, right? And I think a lot of times, at least some of the crowds that I was rolling with when I was younger, it was like this is our identity, this is all we do. We don't listen to that rock BS, we don't listen to jazz, we don't l, you know what I mean? It's like I'm listening to to Manzanita and Bluegrass album band on repeat, you know what I mean? Um, and and I kind of I fooled myself into thinking that's what I needed to do to get like better at bluegrass guitar when I was younger. And I think actually around the time where I started being like happy with some of the things that I heard coming out of my fingers, it was like when I had abandoned that. And I was like, you know what? I love Bob Wills. Like Bob Wills is like one of my favorite things to listen to ever. I love the Tiny Moore and Junior Bernard and Eldon Shamblin and listening to all that stuff. And you know what? I love Dave Mustaine too and Angus Young. Uh like literally last night, dude. I went to go see ACDC with my wife, and it was like one of the coolest things. Yeah. Like that was I I feel like I learned to play guitar from those albums. You know, like once my first teacher showed me like a power chord, you know what I mean? It was like off to the races with that stuff. Um so I guess like once I rediscovered all those things and started kind of like accepting that, you know what, I like a lot of different things. And yeah, bluegrass is what I do, I guess, for a living at this point. It's not like the full picture of like my musical identity, and maybe that's not healthy to even try to make it that thing. Sure, you know.

SPEAKER_02 19:52

Yeah, yeah, that's really fascinating. I mean, I feel like I I was, you know, especially when I was really getting into bluegrass at first, there was that impulse to to really focus just on that thinking that'll give me more time and therefore I'll have a a wider understanding of this thing. And what I found really happened was I was really inflexible, actually. I kind of would only function well in a very narrow environment. And the reality is, unless you are only ever in that narrow environment, which means playing with a very, very small group of people or playing with one specific band all the time, you're not you're not in real life actually exposed to that narrow band of music, right? Like if you go to a jam at a festival, you go to your local jam, you sit in with a band, you have a gig, whatever it is. You're actually always subjected to a much wider range of things than whatever your personal North Star is, right? It you can't escape the outside influences that somebody else brings in that that they're interested in, right? So it doesn't matter how focused you are, the people you play with are not likely to be just all Manzanita all the time. They're probably, which even then is probably a wide range of things compared to someone who's just like I'm all, you know, Stanley Brothers all the time. Like there's that, right? Oh, and that's a whole thing. That's a whole thing. And there's tons of people that are like that, and it's great, but it just really narrows who you can uh kind of share music with and it makes you really inflexible. And it wasn't until I uh relaxed that and and kind of dabbled in a lot of things um while still spending time and trying to get better, and I was trying to take things seriously, but it wasn't until I had that wider range that I felt like I could not just uh you know coexist in a couple different areas that I couldn't before, but but it made it easier then to pick up things on the fly that I hadn't heard before, right? If I'm if I'm kind of more flexible in my practice, then I'm also finding that when something new comes along in the jam or on the gig. That I haven't practiced, I'm a lot more likely to be able to hang on and and do something that feels musical uh instead of needing to go home and learn that particular tune or song before I come back and and accomplish it to some degree. Yeah. I've got a question for you though about all this stuff, because we were talking about this at uh at Swan at Millen Gathering a couple of weeks ago, which was that you were playing um some Kate Breton tunes with uh with our friend Finn, which to hear those tunes uh sounded very challenging, some really like you know, odd meter stuff that that you don't even hear in old time. It's whatever. And you were talking about kind of some of your ability to to even survive that kind of thing. Uh you spent a lot of time playing with April Verch, which is a a quote unquote not bluegrass band. You were flat picking with a band not playing bluegrass, but I'd be we haven't talked that much about it. I'd be curious to know, like maybe you could talk a little bit about what kind of music you played in that band, but also what was your exposure to that before you got there? Like, was there a learning curve getting in there or what what did what what would what did that look like?

SPEAKER_00 23:06

Yeah, I I honestly hadn't been exposed to much of the wider folk world outside of like American, like United States kind of traditions, you know, like Appalachian music. Um so like as I as I got into college, you know, obviously I would hear some more stuff like like I remember hearing Martin Hayes, mainly because I was like, oh, that dude has my name. Um but then I was like, you know, I've never heard fiddle played like that before. You know, it's this really like gentle kind of treatment of Irish traditional tunes and stuff. And so fast forward to when I get hired for the April Verge band, I hadn't really put my fingers across a lot of that type of music. Um, I was ending up listening to a a bunch of like dad gad players and trying to figure out how to do something in a standard tuning that could kind of mimic the style of rhythm that they like to play. Um, April, what's interesting about Canadian fiddle is that like um unlike American fiddle traditions, I feel like there are these really hard lines between like, you know, you're a Texas-style fiddler and you go to Weezer, and or you're like uh, you know, an old-time fiddler and you like essentially occupy the Smoky Mountain region and love any and all fiddlers from there. Or you're a bluegrass guy who is like, I love the Texas style and the old time people, and I like to do a little bit of both, you know what I mean? But like in Canada, there are those hard lines, like you can define the traditions, but a lot of the greatest fiddle players were like, you know, trilingual or whatever. They could play all the Kate Breton stuff and um, you know, the other Canadian styles with like Metis fiddling, which is like a like French and you know, First Nations, they call them up there, um, kind of combined music. Um what else did we have to listen to? Yeah, because the William Gagnot was a the name of a tune of like French Canadian tune that we opened every show with, and I took a flat pick solo on it, and usually we switch tunes to a tune that was more friendly to the uh flat pick guitar. I think you know I used to play like Salt Creek or something like that in the middle of this tune because it was like a modal A kind of thing. Um but yeah, she really pushed the limits of my my flat picking skills, and um I think if you if there are some names of people that you know anyone listening to this should check out to kind of get an idea, obviously check out April Virtue's music. April represents pretty much anywhere between like three to five Canadian styles of fiddle on each album that she does. You know, she's really into American old times, so she loves Tommy Gerald and stuff like that. She listens to a couple guys named uh Calvin Volrath and Graham Townsend. Those are like two of the um like most legendary, like more modern kind of fiddle players up in Canada, masters of all styles. Um yeah, so so that that was definitely uh being exposed to all of those folk music and not realizing that they were just like a couple hundred miles to the north of me the whole time I was alive, you know. And um flat picking, once again, wasn't a thing that was done in those styles, you know. Um do you know who JP Cormier is?

SPEAKER_02 26:29

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I we've never met, but being in Maine, uh I'm actually not sure what part of Canada he's in, but just being in Maine, there's a connection to a bunch of Canadians who know him, and and uh yeah, there's there's a whole crew that I I get exposed to more often than probably someone in another part of the country would. So I'd I'd love to meet him at some point, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:51

Absolutely. I don't think I ever even saw him in Ohio. Like I I didn't know about him until April. You know what I mean? She was like, no, this is our like flat pick guy in Canada, and he's amazing. And holy crap, his version of Lime Rock will melt your face, man. You know, his totally. Um so there were like very few models, I guess, I had to go off of. Kind of in a way that we were talking about like the first and second generation of flat pickers in the States was they were like, there's there's a few people we can look to for inspiration, but otherwise I'm just like hacking my way through this. Um I think one thing I found myself doing when forced to play those styles of music is like a total abandonment of the style of music that I play. Meaning, like I'm I'm now playing uh this is gonna sound so hippy-dippy, but you know what I mean? Just like I'm playing more uh of a feel or like I'm playing within a tonal framework. I'm not playing bluegrass music, I'm not playing, you know, like I never once went, you know, like in in in like those those like Canadian tunes. Like it just doesn't work that way. So you have to figure out maybe a little bit of their vocabulary or some ways to just like mimic their vocabulary within the major scale framework and and stuff like that. Um yeah, I I think we we talked about in the last episode the we both had a period in our lives where we were kind of like um abandoning those cliches that we had amassed, you know what I mean? And and helped us work inside of the bluegrass framework, but but that was one of those periods where I think I shed the most uh of my cliches was in the April Virtue's because they just didn't work. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 28:40

Yeah, that's really interesting. Do you feel like that helped then when you were playing bluegrass? Did that was there any part of that that was like, oh, I have some experience following my ear or following the sound of the band? I mean, I I assume that means that y you really had to trust your ear when you were playing that band. And it out of necessity, whereas sometimes if you're playing, let's say you're playing Salt Creek, for instance, with a bluegrass band, it would be great if you were using your ears and listening to the band and listening to everybody. But you can get away with not if you really know how to play Salt Creek. And so, you know, we're all probably to some degree, I'm not accusing you of anything, I would say I am definitely guilty of like, okay, we're we're on the rails. I know exactly where I'm going with Salt Creek. Uh absolutely. But if I don't know what's about to happen, uh sometimes that makes me a better, you know, I might not play, you know, technically to a certain level if I were familiar with the music, but I'm listening much better and therefore possibly playing better music uh, you know, in in the long run there. And uh do you feel like then you when you did go, you know, spend time playing bluegrass throughout that, do you feel like you were kind of still in that mindset at all? Or did that did you feel like that you could let that stick with you a little bit?

SPEAKER_00 29:56

To me, I think it was honestly uh a near total mindset shift. Wow. So like being in and you know, if April ever hears this, like thank you, April, for like hiring me to be in your band and forcing me to do all these things outside of my comfort zone because it really showed me what you know, you were dancing around this topic earlier, and and I've I've had this discussion before, you know, like the people we were talking about on the list aren't just guitar players, they have something else. And another way to say that maybe is like they're not just guitar players, they're like musicians. You know what I mean? They they're the like practitioners of music, and I think that was one of the things that I really got into in the April Verge years was like I couldn't just play the guitar anymore. I had to play the music, you know what I mean that was was was being tossed at me. And I think once you peek behind the veil of something like that, you actually see that it's like kind of a much more liberating and more fun world to occupy. Um personally, I I feel like I don't um like vocal melodies, for example. If I'm in a bluegrass jam to this day and I've never heard the tune before, usually 90% of the time, because of my experience with April and that phenomenon we just talked about, by the time it comes around for my break, I could play a note-for-note, like melodic solo for what was sung over the verse. You know, like you you get into this routine of like because you have such an active ear and you're like scared for this like unknown thing that's gonna happen next, it like shocks you into just being in the moment, you know? Yeah, and yeah, and like learning how to internalize those things. So, like a lot of that stuff, I feel like I don't even like quote learn those tunes anymore. It's like I just like open my mind in the moment and then like the music happens as it needs to. If it's a fiddle tune, that's a totally different story. If it's like a complex piece of music, you know, like you know, something with with a bunch of eighth notes, that's obviously like but but even her influence there, I can transcribe fiddle tunes quicker, you know. I can hear them by phrases instead of individual notes, you know what I mean? And um there's there's this whole thing that got unlocked uh from playing with April like that. So yeah, I I think it it was a total change in mindset from that point forward.

SPEAKER_02 32:28

That's super interesting. Yeah, it's funny you you mentioned that the the kind of like liberating it it it really is those two things at once, is it's a liberating feeling to be uh trying to listen deeply to what's happening, the music around you, and trying to react to that and trying to participate in that. But it's so true that it also contains an element of fear, kind of like you know, there's a there's a little bit of the feeling of uh well, I don't really know what I'm supposed to, I don't know what this is yet. So I kind of I need to be paying attention because I need to to get some of this. Like I need to get some of this melody or I need to have some understanding of how I'm gonna handle this when it comes around, and I need to take a solo or or whatever, just play rhythm that sounds like you know the song when you're not totally sure where the chorus is about to go or something like that. Absolutely. Um, but there's even the deeper like fear of like you know, I think the this is when this is why people talk about practicing is you do all this practicing and then you forget it. It's not because it's not because you're not supposed to play any of the stuff you practice, it's because you're too busy listening, you're too busy being a part of that moment to kind of recall all these things. And and I'm as guilty as anyone of all right, here's this version of this fiddle tune that I'm gonna play, and here's the stuff that I know that's gonna work, and I'll kind of recall things I've practiced or I'll try things. Absolutely. It's just, you know, this is not a black and white issue. But the times that I felt like the times that I've remembered why I play music or why this is so great, or the times that I've kind of uh felt like, oh, this is what it felt like to hear this type of music for the first time, were the times when I was able to kind of let go and say, okay, it's okay if I don't touch on everything that I've been practicing lately as a little bit of a, you know, make a point to myself that I'm making progress, right? I'm gonna let go of that and I'm just gonna do what's happening in front of me, which is generally pretty simple songs in bluegrass specifically. And it's like there's a um that's it's going from the fear to the liberation of it, you know. It's like the the kind of one unlocks the other. And so I, you know, I can't just turn it on all the time, but certainly that's what again, we were talking about this in the last episode about you know, figuring stuff out for yourself and and kind of being relentless in your search for understanding of stuff. Once you get a taste, you can't stop, right? And once you get a taste of that experience of being in the moment playing music with people, you know, especially people that you know, it's like how you become a you know deeper friends with with people that you just met at a festival is like that experience, right? And once you have once you have that experience, it's like wow, why would I why would I want to have a different experience in music than that, right? Exactly. So it's not easy to just do that all the time, but but it sounds a little bit like like that's kind of what you're describing was was happening kind of again, it's like stuff like this happens out of necessity. If you put yourself in a situation like that that you know you don't know exactly what needs to be happening, you're gonna kind of think and listen deeply to to to figure it out. It reminds me too when people talk about you know, they want don't want to go to a jam for the first time or something like that. But you know, it's it could be that kind of painful, scary experience, but that's kind of the key to opening up a new door, right? Is putting yourself in a situation of being like, I don't I don't know what I'm doing here, I don't know what the chords are, I don't know what part of the circle I'm supposed to sit in. Uh you know, like there's all these little tiny things that you kind of only figure out when you walk in the door and say, Hi, my name is, and can I be the jam or whatever, you know? So it's um it can be a scary thing, but yeah, yeah, it can also be kind of kind of uh a life-changing experience, really.

SPEAKER_00 36:18

You took the words out of my mouth with the jam session thing. I think that's a big problem for a lot of the students that I work with is that they're so married to the idea that they need to practice something and get it to the point where they can take it to the jam. And it's like, nah, man, like if you you'll you'll take forever to do that. And I know because I've done it. Yes, you know what I mean. I I talked myself out of going to the can tab so many times when I lived in Boston because I was like, I'm not gonna get shredded by all those those kids again tonight. I'm gonna shed and then next week is the week, you know what I mean? But it's like, nah, man, just go get shredded, you know, like um, and everyone will love you. And I've I've took some of the worst solos of my entire life at jam sessions like that. You know what? I got great friends like you and the whole Boston community out of those situations. So it's like I think you're you're on to something that's like a really deep fundamental truth of making music with with other people in that way, you know?

SPEAKER_02 37:20

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I remember, yeah, it's so it's so true the the times I haven't gone to something because I did thought I wasn't ready, and and then remembering the times I went anyway, went to a festival. I went to I remember went to the Gay Lags Fiddlers Convention the first time with um with my buddy Troy Boone, um, great multi-instrumentalist, and uh, we went the first time, we didn't know anybody that was gonna be there. And uh we we met a whole bunch of people and we jammed a lot, and it was pretty clear that we didn't have the experience that everybody else had. And it was kind of like, yeah, we're pretty lucky to get into this jam, and but we're not gonna push our luck. And you know, we were just like, okay, we're gonna we're gonna do what feels feels comfortable and whatever it is. And you get I have like lifelong friends from we were there for a day, and I have lifelong friends from that day where I was not good enough to be in those jams. Um, and uh, and some of those people who I ended up being in bands with or going on the road with, or um, you know, you end up at these people's weddings, you end up like being in these people's lives, and it's like the smallest part of that was was my ability to play the banjo. It had almost nothing. I probably could have gotten a lot of that without even playing. I just like showed up, right? But uh, but the fact that you show up and you play and people are are kind of encouraging because they've all been there, it's like that's that's the life-changing part of that. And the same thing is true, yeah, the can tab. You know, I got asked to go play a set of the can tab this great Tuesday night. Every every week at in Cambridge, there was this, you know, Boston area gig that that everybody who lived in Boston or went through Boston had played. Everyone you can think of that was ever in that area played a million gigs at the can tab. And uh, you know, yeah, it's it was amazing. And uh every time I was there, it was a I felt very lucky, like, wow, I get to be around all these people. And uh before you know it, it's like you don't really have time to to go around being a fan of all these people because you're your friends already, you know. It's like, oops, I I can't I can't just like go around pestering you with questions because you know, we're going out to eat out to the gig now and we're talking about something else. It's like wow, this is actually way better. This is great. Um, but it does require that that step out of your comfort zone a little bit. And uh yeah, so so that can that can be challenging, but I find it uh encouraging, you know, to bring this back to what we were talking about. I find this encouraging every time I see one of these guitarists that I think of as like, well, that that's a bluegrass guitar right there. They are bluegrass guitar, and you look at their life and it's so much more complicated than that, and it's so much deeper, you know. You just like you it's it's what a way um what a gift it is to be reminded, first of all, that you're not at the center of the universe, and then you look at somebody else's life and realize, well, bluegrass guitar isn't even at the center of their universe either. They're they're a whole other real person with a million things going on, and uh every time I see that it kind of reminds me like, right, right. That's that's the bigger picture, and that's how I'm gonna get, you know, that that's how I'm gonna get a an interesting life out of out of doing all of this stuff.

SPEAKER_00 40:34

Absolutely. Look at the number of albums that Tony Rice recorded as a solo artist throughout the 1980s, separate them by genre. You know, I haven't done this, but I know that they're they'll at least stack up pretty evenly in terms of like straight ahead bluegrass. If we want to get really pedantic, you could go track by track. Because like me, me and my guitar love that album, Sweetheart Like This, not Bluegrass. No, no, right? Exactly. So, yeah, yeah, it's i i everything is much more complex than than just the grass. And I don't know if I'm gonna just say something that I sort of said a little while ago to you listening to this or watching this right now, um keep your ears open and love what you love and use that to make music, you know what I mean. If Tony Rice is really inspiring you right now, that's great. But if Brent Mason is too, or Michael Hedges, you know, like you could be the next Cody Kilby or Trey Hensley, you know what I mean, or or whatever. So um don't don't discount what your your heart really wants. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02 41:49

Oh man. Okay, well, okay, uh so I I don't believe that I'm a voting member of IBMA. I think I was at one point, but I'm pretty sure that has lapsed since now. So it's very it's very possible that will continue through the year, in which case uh I I will likely not necessarily be voting, uh, but we can still be uh predicting. Do you have a prediction? Who do you think to okay? I don't want this to get too inflammatory. Maybe there's two questions here. Who do you think is going to win and who do you think who would you vote for? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

Absolutely. Um I could see, like if I think who's going to win, I'm looking at this list, and like we said, all these people have released really strong like current projects that they're like touring on and stuff like that. But one thing that I think plays to Molly Tuttle's advantage is the fact that she has a new band sound. You know what I mean? Like we were kind of talking about a little while ago. Um, and that could play to her advantage, I think, in terms of like the wider voting thing. Like, I I think like like the the newness value of that could could potentially. Um and then as as far as who I would vote for, this is like uh it's such I'm gonna say two names, and and you'll never know which one I would have marked on the list. But I I feel like Cody and Trey have been really doing some cool stuff in the last couple years. I love Trey's new album. Um I think it's a really tight um, you know, virtuosic, but like tasteful and and and well put together album. And then Cody, I I've I've been so impressed with everything that he's done with the Traveling McCurry's. I feel like it's a much more versatile role than in like maybe the Skags band or or um some of the other stuff he's done before. Like, did you ever listen to that album, that solo album, Welcome to China, that he recorded years back? No. Um It had like Bruce Hornsby on it, on some tracks, and it a lot of the stuff. Like, if you listen to it, you're like, oh, that there's the Michael Hedges influence. You know, there's like some really cool stuff. And I and I see more of that flavor in like the Traveling McCurry's thing because those guys play some wild uh uh material. So I would I would be I would be sweating with my ballot looking between Trey and Cody and not really knowing which one to mark, you know. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:26

Yeah, that's fair. That's fair.

SPEAKER_00 44:27

What about you, dude? What's your thoughts?

SPEAKER_02 44:29

Well, I think I kind of agree that uh, you know, like okay, who who is going to win? Sometimes it really has to do. I mean, uh, because we okay, one thing we can say is that's always a possibility is uh Brian Sutton uh win has won, I don't know how many times. I mean, I think a lot of them. I think it's possible Missy Rains is the most awarded person in an instrument, you know. I think she's uh I think it's 11 now, 11 time bass player of the year. Brian Sutton might be the next like most awarded instrumentalist, unless he has more, but it might be like eight or nine or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 45:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:07

And I remember there were a couple years where it was just over and over and over again, and to the point where he even was was kind of in his speech saying thanks, but like take a you know, he I think one year he read a list of people that people should listen to. Instead, like, hey, check out Billy Strings and Chris Luquette, and you know, like had he read this list of people like because he was saying, Look, this is great, but I've won this a lot of time. This is getting ridiculous, people. Yeah, exactly. So so I I I hope it doesn't come come off as um flippant, but I would say something like Brian Sutton by default. You know, it's like it's possible that everyone just says, look, he recorded this year and he's a generational, you know, kind of force in Bluegrass guitar. So there's always that chance that that's happening. I've my recollection is that lately it has been, you know, uh I don't pay too much attention. Um, but I think it's been more often Billy or Molly in the last couple of years, is my recollection. Maybe Trey a couple years ago or something like that. So I say that it's like, you know, who knows? Maybe, maybe Brian. But I kind of agree with you that I think when somebody changes their sound in the course of like a year or two, and then like the stuff that Molly put out was kind of a lot of a lot of it is is more kind of um pop centric in a way. But like her guitar parts are very much her, like it's her sound. It's not her, I don't know, she's not doing something that she didn't already do. It's kind of just like what what else can surround her personal style, um, which seems pretty cool. I think that that that could that could be a thing worth recognizing that people might see that, right? Um and then yeah, I mean, Billy just keeps getting bigger and bigger, and like it's kind of unreal the the last couple years, that that growth. So I could also see that that happening. Um But in terms of who I personally would vote for, it's hard because I've always wondered like what is the point, what is the what is the goal of like what is the specific purpose of the awards? Are we saying who's the best, who had the best year, who, you know, whatever. It's like what does any of that mean?

SPEAKER_00 47:25

Right, it's this is where it becomes kind of Yeah, the subjectivity can be overwhelming, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:30

Because like in a way, you're like, okay, blue guys guitar players here, it's Billy Strings. Most famous guitar player. Um yeah, like if you're looking at ticket sales. Yeah. Most most listened, uh, most kids getting into guitar saying, I want to play like Billy Strings. You know, it's like for if that's the metric, then objectively, that's the answer. Yeah. But but what's interesting is the IBM A world is not really that because it's actually a really small number of people who vote. It's only I this was a couple years ago, but I think it was like 1,500 voting members or something, not that long ago. I think, you know, which is a tiny amount of people that even like bluegrass. You know, that's yep. It's a small scene and an even smaller group of people voting. So it it can be something else. It doesn't have to just be who's the most famous, right? Not that Billy couldn't win on a million other categories of merit, right?

SPEAKER_00 48:21

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 48:22

Um, have I gone on long enough? Does it seem like I'm I'm stalling before I answer? Yeah, the the drum roll's been going a long time, man. Uh if I go, if I go on long enough, you'll forget that I'm supposed to pick someone and then I can and then I can, yeah. Um but I think, yeah, if I had to if I had to vote myself, I would probably say honestly, I probably would say Billy Strengths. Even though I just went through this whole thing of of of what are we voting for? But it's like personally, I uh it's it's a crazy machine that he's a part of in the industry right now that probably no one in bluegrass, almost no one in bluegrass has any idea what that's like. But but the amount of work that that means you end up doing in terms of recording and performing and you know, whatever it is, to be truly like a like kind of a real celebrity in a way, uh, for better or for worse, uh, you know, the what the experience of that feels like. Uh, and to be performing on the level that he's performing, uh, without sacrificing any of the quality of of his musicianship is kind of staggering, right? Like that's that's pretty amazing. Um so I think like I think every, you know, you could you could kind of could have made that argument every year the last couple of years, but I think it it just keeps kind of continues to grow. I think that's who I would say. Like that's a that's a pretty amazing that's a pretty amazing thing in terms of of just like yeah, I think that means guitar player of of the year, you know. Um truth be told, I'm spending a lot more time listening to Brian Sutton lately, but you know, that's because I'm I'm a recent guitar nerd and I'm listening to records from like 30 years ago, so that's a that's a different discussion. But uh but yeah, I mean that's that's what it feels like right now.

SPEAKER_00 50:15

Yeah, I I like that, man. And and even what you just said is cool because you can like, I think to think about something like this is not like pointless, you know, even though it is pretty subjective, you know what I mean? But it helps you like, I don't know, we're being forced to reckon with like what do we appreciate about the people that we listen to and and and and whatnot. And I think if you look at the whole person, like you said, holy crap, like Billy Strings, what a what a you know, kind of magnificent um operation and story and guy. He's just like a nice dude, you know what I mean? So there's like and and all of them can say that. Like I met Brian Sutton for the first time this past year, and he's one of the like deepest, most like mindful people. He like listens to everyone who talks to him, you know. So like like you know, like I was getting at, you're forced to reckon with these things. Like, what do I know about this person? What do I appreciate about their guitar playing and how they fit into the scene? And you know, I'll after now that we've made our choices, I'll absolve of us of all guilt and say that if we zoom out, we can say the same thing that we said at the beginning that like this is a great list, and I don't think you can you can can't argue that there's you know that all these people like don't deserve to be here or whatever, you know, like yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:33

And I think, you know, I think one of the things people forget is because you do hear a lot of complaints about the list, right? Like, especially from musicians, but no matter who it's from, even for the audience you hear, like, well, why isn't so-and-so on the list? And I think there's always a pretty obvious answer, which is um, you know, we can't we can't quantify uh ability in such a way that someone you know as recognized as Brian Sutton is to then be compared to this person that people don't necessarily know about, but maybe the greatest guitar player of all time, that they say, why aren't they on the list? That conversation happens every year. And it is kind of like, well, that's the world we're living in. If we're having the big, the big award show with the big names, and everyone gets all dressed up. It's like, well, that's kind of the nature of what this thing is. Sometimes people take for granted that the award show is made up. This is not like, okay, the US government is deciding once and for all who the best thing at this thing is, and that's just the, you know, it's like this isn't an immutable law of the universe. Yeah. It's like you talk about like Times Person of the Year. It's a magazine and they made it up. This is an association and they made it up. So, you know, it has real world consequences, certainly, but you do have to kind of remember like it's an award show for people that we already know about, and eventually your unrecognized favorite guitar player will probably end up there if they decide to go through the industry, right? This is an industry award show. This is not a grassroots folk uh recognition of people who don't play professionally or don't, you know, record. This is an industry association for people who participate in the business at a high level. So you have to keep that in mind. Um, because I often am like, wow, man, too bad so-and-so isn't on that list. Or it's like, well, so-and-so um hasn't been in the industry for long enough to uh kind of be recognized in the industry, right? That's it's in it's industry stuff.

SPEAKER_00 53:30

Yep. And and I think you said something important a few minutes ago with the fact that there was something around 1,500 voting members. And if you think about the people who are going to hold membership in this organization and have a vested interest in this, it ends up oftentimes being industry professionals, like you said. So it's like it's not just the average everyday person that's signing up to be an IBM A member so that they can vote in the award show. It's people that are musicians and promoters and work for record labels and are luthiers and you know what I mean? So it's like all of the trades that are kind of like related to to Bluegrass, that's who shows up. And when you have such a small subsection, 1500 people, and you think about okay, what guitar players have made some sort of impression upon the majority of that small subset of people, the the names start to make sense, like you're saying, you know what I mean? It's the the people who are at the festivals all the time, you know, working with those promoters and who are on those record labels and who are buying and representing those instruments and luthers and who are, you know what I mean? And and I'm not even saying this is like a terrible thing, it's just like like a fact, like you were talking about a minute ago, right? It's it's like uh uh that those are the inner workings of of how that stuff operates.

SPEAKER_02 54:54

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, sometimes I mean one great example is the Grammys, we kind of look at in the same vein where we kind of take it as like that's that's just a fundamental part of human existence is here's the event where they tell us what the best thing is. But you really kind of had to zoom out again and be like, no, it's a made-up thing that uh is kind of the same. It's for the industry, right? It not doesn't because it's made up, that doesn't mean it's not real, but it does mean that it's it's um it wasn't there before we we constructed the whole thing and decided this is how it's gonna work, whatever it was. And even something like that, you know, that's is kind of more a something like the Grammys is more it's mass appeal across the entire world in a sense, right? In terms of like your impact on whatever. But Bluegrass is an even more focused version of that, specifically in that one industry. So I think if you if you take that into account, then it's it's like, yeah, I wish the people that that don't get recognized could have the benefits that you get when you win an award. Certainly, you know, there's lots of opportunities and the recognition can be great for you professionally. So it's not not to say that that doesn't matter. Uh, but but when you know it can help you not take it personally when you think that the the the the real reward is not necessarily the trophy, you know, the reward is industry stuff, is is is your up your ability to then perform within the industry. So so that happens. What I am curious about, because uh these conversations always include long lists of people that should be recognized for whatever reason and uh and maybe this is a good thing for us to do on a regular basis, is uh if uh, you know, maybe share someone um that you've been checking out that folks maybe haven't haven't heard of. I've got one, but I'm curious if you uh if you've got something you've been thinking about that because it's you know, there's there's tons of people that that I think someone should check out and listen to that maybe uh isn't going to end up on that list either for one reason or another, but but I mean, man, what a bunch of amazing music that's out there that that doesn't need to be awarded to to be shared, you know.

SPEAKER_00 57:02

Yeah. I mean, if we're talking about I'm just looking at my recently listened to, because I've been actually trying to specifically plug into more new stuff. And I love what uh Grant Gordy is doing with Mr. Sun these days, you know what I mean? Like he's obviously not like the most like quite the opposite, in fact, of like the most like down the middle like bluegrass guitar player. I don't even know if bluegrass guitar player is what something that Grant would identify with. Like he's a flat picker, right? Um so yeah, I I really um dig what what Grant is doing these days, and I think that those guys are making some of the most interesting music, um, him specifically on the guitar that I really enjoy. Um yeah, who who's your choice?

SPEAKER_02 57:47

So this is one that I um I've known them for for a couple years, but I think this record just came out in June um and kind of blew me away. I don't know if you know uh Sophie Wellington.

SPEAKER_00 57:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:58

Yeah, so Sophie, um they're a I kind of knew them as like a fiddle player primarily, I guess, um, and does like flat footing and dance stuff and and had a had a maybe still has a great band called Dumpster Debbie, which is like old time with drums sometimes and like cool stuff, whatever. And uh and I'm gonna be cute curious to ask them about this because they uh put out this record called, let me look at what it's called so I don't mess it up. It's right here because I've listened to it all morning. It's called Her Her Bright Smile Haunts Me Still, and it just came out last month, and it is uh just guitar voice and some step dance, some dancing also. So like percussive dance, and it's some singing, and there's fiddle tunes, just like old-time tunes played, just flatpicked. Um, and it just blew me away. Like incredible tone, the timing, the rhythm of it. It was like kind of makes sense that the old-time fiddle rhythm stuff and the dance, it's just like all kind of comes together in a way that it's like, oh, this is how old-time guitar melodies should be played, you know. There's the first track on the record, they play um Scolding Life, which is this old-time tune that I heard Adam Hurt play on his second gourd banjo record. Oh, the record is um Back to the Earth is the record, and it's it, it's Adam plays this incredible version of it. And I'd be curious, I think Sophie maybe kind of based it on that version, or or maybe there's an earlier version they both based it on, but it's it's just flat picked and it's really kind of sparse actually compared to what you'd think. You know, you think about these solo guitar arrangements as being, you know, you got the melody and the chords and the rhythm, and you got a kind of that's the the magic trick of combining all these things, like you know, Tommy Emmanuel being like the the pinnacle of like playing everything all the time. But then the way Soapy's playing these melodies is it's really um it's the melody, and then once in a while there's a bass note or some accompanying note that gets the harmony in there. Yeah. And it's such a perfect use of it. And then they're often dancing, and so you're hearing the the you know, the shoes on the the wood surface, whatever it is, the whole time. And it like to the the interplay between that is kind of unbelievable. Um, and then there's a couple where where they're just singing some really amazing songs and the and the guitar accompaniment again is kind of simple, but uh, but really deep. I don't know, it it it's really kind of rocked my world in the last like day or two. So it's one of those things where um, you know, if you think about IBM A and what flat picking represents within IBMA, what bluegrass is like, yeah, that's never going to be recognized in that way. But if if we're just talking about the way this stuff impacts our playing and like uh then you participate in the bluegrass scene, it's like for whatever contribution I'll ever make to like my local jam and the people I make music with and whatever, like this record adjacent to bluegrass, whatever it is, is gonna be a huge part of what I then bring to, you know, that thing. That that's that's what ends up happening is whatever you're into, you kind of inject into your local scene or or whatever it is. So I've been thinking about that. It's like, okay, uh, there's some things I can really kind of learn from that, or the spirit of that that can be really um inspiring in a way that it it a little bit knocked uh uh knocked me uh off balance a little bit. I was I was learning this Jake Workman solo on Big Sota. There's a jam on YouTube of Tony Watt and Jake Workman playing Big Soyota. I think I've seen this one. Yeah. I'm sure you have it's great. He plays his first break on it, it's awesome. There's a bunch of cool stuff, and I'm just like in flap picking nerd heaven learning this stuff. It's like, oh, here's some floating stuff and you're all stuff. It's great. Could not possibly detract from that in any way. But then I hear this record, oh wow, this is the you know, in the moment that I was working on that solo, I forgot about all the other things about music that I love, right? I got so zeroed in on this one thing. And then uh and that's cool because then you can then you zoom out and actually have a better picture of of what Jake was doing anyway, in a real musical sense rather than the nerd the the detailed nerdy sense. But but it was it was cool. So check out Sophie Wellington. Uh her smile haunts me still, I think. Or yeah, whatever I said the first time was right. So that's what I would say.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:31

I think that's that's awesome, man. I actually was just typing that into my notes right now. And um I should have said this uh because the record that I was listening to recently from Grant was um Peripheral Visions. That's his release from 2023.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:48

So oh, nice.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:50

Yeah, check that out. Um I also want to give a shout out. Runner up in my mind was uh your old bandmate uh Ben Garnett. I feel like Ben is making some of the coolest.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:02

In fact, video viewers will see I'm wearing my Ben Garnett shirt. Yes, this is my Ben Garnett merch.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:10

Well, I guess this just became the Ben Garnett episode of the flat picking podcast. Maybe we can actually but Kites Keep, uh that album that he released last year. Uh you know, the he's got a couple like guest features on there, like uh Britney Haas and Darrell Anger and stuff. And uh I mean, if anyone's listened to Ben, obviously he's slays it with Missy, but like he's like a much more like eclectic player than just that, right? Like that that dude's influences are you know far and deep, and I I love every chance I get to hear him.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:45

So yeah, absolutely. Yeah, we played one of the tunes out that record with Missy. That was kind of his feature, so that was always a fun, fun one to do. Um yeah, Ben is uh yeah, one of my favorite people and musicians. I mean, what a what a sweet, you know, beautiful person. But his uh talk about listening, you know, and talking about being committed to the to the moment of playing music, not the um not kind of communicating the idea of bluegrass, but but like really playing music in the midst of bluegrass, you know. Um, that was really special to to get to see that, right? It was kind of that was inspiring. It's like you you play all these gigs and sometimes you're you know, if I wasn't feeling it or I wasn't, you know, I was kind of in some cases I was just kind of doing the bluegrass banjo thing in that band once in a while. You know, it was just kind of like which great. I love that, right? Uh but then sometimes I'd look over and I'd see Ben. I was like, he's really, you know, going through something in the song. He's really like it, which wasn't the same as last night when he did the song. It's like he's really engaging with me in the moment. And I find that really amazing. He's got two solo records, he's got a bunch of interesting records out with a bunch of different people, but he's got two solo records, both of which are are amazing. Yeah, that's a that's a great, great call out for sure. Sweet. Well, looking at the time here, I think we may have accomplished successfully on yet another episode of the Flat Picking Podcast. Which uh, you know, I'll tell you folks uh hopefully you know who we are because we did not introduce the podcast nor ourselves the top, I don't believe. I don't think we did. I believe uh we just got into it. So feel free to check out the descriptions in uh whichever platform you're checking this out, whether it's on a podcast app or on YouTube, uh, for any relevant information. But uh my co-host Hayes Griffin, where can where can people find things that uh they might like to find if they'd like you included in what they're looking for?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:46

Absolutely. There are a few places where you can find such digital delicacies. Um so if you guys want, you can uh find me at youtube.com forward slash Hayes Griffin. That's my YouTube channel where uh post a lot of stuff. I mean, you'll probably see this podcast there, but you'll also see guitar educational content, interviews with other guitar players. Um sometimes I lead meditations and live stream and do that kind of stuff. Um and then if you want to study with me on kind of a more uh regular basis, you can uh head to Hayes Griffin, H A Y E S, G-R-I-F-F-I-N dot club, C-L-U-B to sign up for my guitar club. What about you, Eli? Where can folks find you?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:28

You could find me on YouTube at Eli Gilbert Guitar, sharing my journey of learning to flat pick and uh just sharing some practice logs, many of which will probably include things I'm practicing that I learned in these podcast episodes from Hayes. So shout out to Hayes for eternally uh inspiring those practice logs. But uh otherwise, folks, that's gonna do it for now. So at this point, if you're listening to if you've listened to both episodes of this podcast, feel free to leave any comments or questions. At some point, we're going to happily uh answer or address things that uh that get brought up, and we'd love to make you a part of that. So feel free to let us know what you're thinking. Um, as long as it is showering us with compliments. Otherwise, you'll be blocked and deleted. But uh but otherwise, that's gonna do it for now. So thanks for watching, folks, and we will see you in the next episode of the Flat Picking Podcast.